Using the arguments against actual infinites against theists

[Freedom of thought]

You've probably heard about the arguments against infinity by many theologians, the funny thing is, this actually refutes their own god.

I will first start off by pointing out that since god is omniscience, he would know absolutely everything, so this means he would have to have infinite knowledge. We know from quantum physics that there are essentially an infinite amount of possibilities. With the many world interpretation of quantum mechanics for example, there is an infinite amount of possible states which are all actualized. So, if god existed, he would have to know all of these infinite states to be omniscient, thus god's knowledge would have to be infinite.

So the next time a theist tries to point out that infinites cannot be actualized, say they are cutting off the branch they are sitting on. Well, if infinities can't exist, then god can't be infinitely powerful or have infinite knowledge.

[MindForgedManacle]

I will first start off by pointing out that since god is omniscience, he would know absolutely everything, so this means he would have to have infinite knowledge.

Only if you think God's knowledge is propositional, I think. Further, apologists often distinguish a qualitative infinity from a quantitative one. They might say something like God is omnipotent/infinitely powerful because there is no possible world where he or any other being has power greater than he does.

We know from quantum physics that there are essentially an infinite amount of possibilities. With the many world interpretation of quantum mechanics for example, there is an infinite amount of possible states which are all actualized. So, if god existed, he would have to know all of these infinite states to be omniscient, thus god's knowledge would have to be infinite.

Under MWI, there are an unlimited amount of universes, not an infinite amount.

So the next time a theist tries to point out that infinites cannot be actualized, say they are cutting off the branch they are sitting on. Well, if infinities can't exist, then god can't be infinitely powerful or have infinite knowledge.

I agree what you're trying to get at, just not your examples.


Oh, and a mathematician I know has a book on this. Just search for "Dot Dot Dot: Infinity and God" on Amazon (that's not te exact title). It's pretty interesting.

[Freedom of thought]

I will first start off by pointing out that since god is omniscience, he would know absolutely everything, so this means he would have to have infinite knowledge.

Only if you think God's knowledge is propositional, I think. Further, apologists often distinguish a qualitative infinity from a quantitative one. They might say something like God is omnipotent/infinitely powerful because there is no possible world where he or any other being has power greater than he does.

We know from quantum physics that there are essentially an infinite amount of possibilities. With the many world interpretation of quantum mechanics for example, there is an infinite amount of possible states which are all actualized. So, if god existed, he would have to know all of these infinite states to be omniscient, thus god's knowledge would have to be infinite.

Under MWI, there are an unlimited amount of universes, not an infinite amount.

So the next time a theist tries to point out that infinites cannot be actualized, say they are cutting off the branch they are sitting on. Well, if infinities can't exist, then god can't be infinitely powerful or have infinite knowledge.

I agree what you're trying to get at, just not your examples.


Oh, and a mathematician I know has a book on this. Just search for "Dot Dot Dot: Infinity and God" on Amazon (that's not te exact title). It's pretty interesting.

You said pretty much what my examples were trying to point out.

"We know from quantum physics that there are essentially an infinite amount of possibilities. With the many world interpretation of quantum mechanics for example, there is an infinite amount of possible states which are all actualized."

If the many worlds interpretation is correct, all possible states will be continually actualized into the future, since there are infinite possible configurations of the universe that would mean an infinite amount of different states. But if you continue this process into infinity all states will be actualized; That is only if the many worlds interpretation is correct I'm pretty sure. But what we do know for sure is that there is definitely an infinite amount of 'possible' states from physics. If god is all knowing, he must know all the possible states in order to be omniscient, but that doesn't mean all states are actualized.

[MindForgedManacle]

You said pretty much what my examples were trying to point out.

"We know from quantum physics that there are essentially an infinite amount of possibilities. With the many world interpretation of quantum mechanics for example, there is an infinite amount of possible states which are all actualized."

If the many worlds interpretation is correct, all possible states will be continually actualized into the future, since there are infinite possible configurations of the universe that would mean an infinite amount of different states. But if you continue this process into infinity all states will be actualized; That is only if the many worlds interpretation is correct I'm pretty sure. But what we do know for sure is that there is definitely an infinite amount of 'possible' states from physics. If god is all knowing, he must know all the possible states in order to be omniscient, but that doesn't mean all states are actualized.

You actually indirectly make the point I was making. "Infinity" and "unlimited" are similar, yet distinct, concepts. As you see in your own post, the MWI interpretation has worlds branching off and causally decohering from each other (if I under it correctly). Hence, this is a process. Now, you say that if you continue this process "into infinity, all possible states will be actualized". The problem is that since infinity isn't ever "reached", all states are never actualized. All that really happens is that more states are continually actualized since there is no upper bound so far as we know. But there's the difference between unlimited and infinity: the former denotes no limit, the latter denotes being unending. If you don't see the difference, consider this:

Say I have a normal sized bathtub that's filled. Now, let's say my bathtub is basically magic and so even if you take water out of it, the amount of water in it never decreases. Clearly, I have an unlimited amount of water, but do I have an infinite amount? Of course not, there's always a definite, finite amount of water in my magic tub at one point, and the same for the amount of worlds in the MWI.

[Freedom of thought]

You said pretty much what my examples were trying to point out.

"We know from quantum physics that there are essentially an infinite amount of possibilities. With the many world interpretation of quantum mechanics for example, there is an infinite amount of possible states which are all actualized."

If the many worlds interpretation is correct, all possible states will be continually actualized into the future, since there are infinite possible configurations of the universe that would mean an infinite amount of different states. But if you continue this process into infinity all states will be actualized; That is only if the many worlds interpretation is correct I'm pretty sure. But what we do know for sure is that there is definitely an infinite amount of 'possible' states from physics. If god is all knowing, he must know all the possible states in order to be omniscient, but that doesn't mean all states are actualized.

You actually indirectly make the point I was making. "Infinity" and "unlimited" are similar, yet distinct, concepts. As you see in your own post, the MWI interpretation has worlds branching off and causally decohering from each other (if I under it correctly). Hence, this is a process. Now, you say that if you continue this process "into infinity, all possible states will be actualized". The problem is that since infinity isn't ever "reached", all states are never actualized. All that really happens is that more states are continually actualized since there is no upper bound so far as we know. But there's the difference between unlimited and infinity: the former denotes no limit, the latter denotes being unending. If you don't see the difference, consider this:

Say I have a normal sized bathtub that's filled. Now, let's say my bathtub is basically magic and so even if you take water out of it, the amount of water in it never decreases. Clearly, I have an unlimited amount of water, but do I have an infinite amount? Of course not, there's always a definite, finite amount of water in my magic tub at one point, and the same for the amount of worlds in the MWI.

I agree. Infinity isn't actualized, because it would require and infinite amount of time; and as you know with time, it takes time. In theory though, there are infinite possible states, and therefore god would need infinite knowledge.