(August 1, 2013 at 1:38 pm)Esquilax Wrote:(August 1, 2013 at 4:20 am)Esquilax Wrote: Universe as it currently is. Nobody has provided a reason to discount an eternal universe yet.
But can you imagine such a universe? It would have to be a universe that changes, yet does not decay or lose positive energy. No one has discounted it, but then no one has discounted flying unicorns either.
(August 1, 2013 at 4:20 am)Esquilax Wrote: Why are we discounting plain old infinity?
Why hold to a theory that can never be explained, when another answer lies before you? If we are intelligent beings, is it so hard to accept that there might be an intelligent being outside our universe, in the "eternal universe," unrestricted by our laws?
Do you believe that answers must begin and end with science? Why not reason past our observational limitations? Because if there is even a possibility of a God who wishes to communicate with us, wouldn't we be idiots not to try?
(August 1, 2013 at 4:20 am)Esquilax Wrote: Oh, and once again, even granting the premises of your argument, "personal cause," doesn't equal "your god." It doesn't even equal "purposeful creation." Maybe this first cause just sneezed, and bam, universe?
Can a changeless being accidentally cause change? While you think about that, let's say "No" so we can move on with the argument. If this being purposely creates something, would it not be perfect in its/his sight? If you had the power to create the very laws of a new universe, would you not make it exactly as you wish it to be? Why build anything you would be unsatisfied with? And if this being is satisfied with our universe, it/he pays great attention to it, and to us. In five billion years, our universe will be dead. Would you complete a work of art to see it destroyed? This is the anti-Deist argument. A God creates a perfect world and withdraws his support to watch it die... Can you think of anything less fulfilling?
I'm sure the image of the kid and the anthill is appealing right now. But the kid grows up, and realizes he would much rather be needed by his family than destroy insects who don't even understand.
I dispute your contention that the universe is eternal. Your answer only pushes the question of the cause of the Big Bang further back. For example, this site, What happened before the Big Bang? at http://io9.com/5881330/what-happened-bef...e-big-bang hypothecizes that other universes existed before ours. So? What caused those universes to exist?
It takes a bigger leap of faith to believe that universes "just happen" than the leap of faith I take in believing God cause the universe(s) to exist.
When I look at the incredible design of the universe, I see an intelligent designer, not a random accident. For example, check this site out:
What if strong force were stronger and weak force weaker? This site
http://www.space.com/11968-forces-form-m...eaker.html explains another mystery that I do not think is a coincidence.
Why were scientists at CERN able to find the Higgs particle exactly as predicted? Because the universe has a design. Yes, there is the law of entropy, but that could also be part of the design.
And what about gravity? How come it is strong enough, but not too strong?
Also, why does the whole universe seem to be designed so that humans can exist? All the science in the world cannot explain the purpose of creation. The earth is not too far away from the sun nor too close. Etc, etc., etc. It is not just one fact that appears designed, but so many taken together makes a pattern of evidence for a designer. It is not a cosmic accident.
I prefer the leap of faith I have taken to yours any day. I can have reasonable certainty that God exists, and that is good enough for me. Unless you can prove it is impossible for God to exist, I'll stick with mine. Since I am confident, you cannot do that, I don't think I will become an atheist again.
