Free will Argument against Divine Providence

[genkaus]

True. But I'm not doing that, which is illustrated by the fact that I said I'm just giving my opinion and not claiming it to be fact....

You didn't state it as an opinion when you kept repeating that free-will must imply ultimate self-responsibility.

Free will that is not chance and is not determinism... what's that?

The way free-will exists within a dualistic context.

And those who see "chance as free will" as not useless... how does that make sense? Would they regard all our actions being decided as dice rolls as "free will"? As Bennyboy argues, that's freedom without the will.

Not sure how it makes sense - it doesn't make sense to me. But yes, that is how they regard "free-will" and they would regard dice-rolls as "free-will" except for the fact that they'd argue that dice-rolls are in fact deterministic.

The fact I'm arguing against the definition demonstrates that I am questioning the soundness and not the validity.

But the fact that you are doing so by simply changing the definition makes your argument invalid.

If we are unconsciously determined or undetermined, there is no free will in any meaningful way and, yes, no moral responsiiblity in no meaningful way, in my opinion.

Only is you assume free-will to mean ultimate self-determination and moral responsibility to mean ultimate moral responsibility - otherwise, there both free-will and moral responsibility can exist in a meaningful way.

What kind of dualism?

Whatever the kind, the point is that we are either unconsciously determined or unconsciously undetermined and either way we have no free will in a meaningful way, in my opinion.

Substance dualism - within which the mind or the soul is exempt from causal determinism and chance - and is therefore considered to be ultimately self-determined.