No verifiable evidence is the Christian position

[FallentoReason]

Natural processes are anything but ambiguous. Does this mean God is now disproved, or will you be forced to go back to the traditional view of miracles

On a similar topic, how is it that the supernatural acts exclusively naturally? Causal relations would tell me that *somewhere* the supernatural action turned natural. Care to give an account of this phenomenon?

I almost can't believe you're serious. Almost

Supernatural phenomenon always appear to be natural, unless you can suggest how they couldn't be. Like you correctly said, we'd have to discover the water into wine trick.

God is continually fine tuning. To us stuff just happens. On it's own.

We can't /know it's supernatural, that's down to interpretation. To me, everything is moulded by God. Not that I need to take anything at all from nature and science. Those are sacrosanct. I just have a perspective of God's will/ God interacting.

The supernatural never acts naturally. That's not what I'm saying. Supernatural events occur and have to be indistinguishable from natural events, or they couldn't be supernatural. If we can see a process outside nature, that process becomes nature.

I think I can almost grasp what you're saying. My brain is fried from doing 2 hours of calc... so bear with me :p

Let me ask you this: is my heater producing a miraculous event by turning cold air to hot air? I'm going to jump the gun and assume the answer to be "no". Why? Well, I'm guessing because the event wasn't initiated by anything divine. As a side note, this non-miraculous event can be fully analysed in terms of physics. This analysis in turn would be able to pin-point some sort of "smoking gun" from where the event was first caused to happen. Specifically speaking, it might be the input of the electrical current into the heater, thus initiating a series of causal relations resulting in the transformation of cold air to hot air.

Now, for events that *are* miraculous, that *were* initiated by a divine entity... well, what would make you think in the first place it really was a miracle? From the above I've gathered that you definitely think a miracle can be reduced to natural phenomena because essentially the supernatural is indistinguishable from the natural. Therefore, it seems to me that an analysis of it can be such that we find that nature hasn't been violated by anything supernatural, therefore a completely natural explanation is possible just like it's possible for the heater. This is why it makes sense [to me] that you would agree that there's presumably a method for turning water to wine. But if so far we're in agreement, then effectively, you've removed all potential explanatory power for your religion. Let me illustrate:

>Jesus was a *chemist*. He knew how to turn water to wine.
>I'm a miracle worker because I can turn cold air into hot air.

A "miracle" is a trivial definition for a certain *explainable* event which for some *unknown* reason has been attributed to the divine.

Why not say that Jesus was a chemist and I'm god with heating powers? Explanatory power for the supernatural is out the window.