(August 21, 2013 at 12:43 pm)Drich Wrote:(August 21, 2013 at 9:50 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Well, I'm gathering that your critique of the OP is that it isn't considering *all* that Jesus did - that, as you said, there's more than just the physical sacrifice. So my question to you is: does Christianity still work if he hadn't been sacrificed? If the answer is "yes", then that means the OP really is flawed and the point is moot. If the answer is "no" i.e. the crucifixion is *necessary*, then your appeal to "option 5" is a waste of time i.e. stop being alternative by creating a 5th optionWhat if is neither yes or no?
Not saying this to be difficult for the sake of being difficult. But think about it. In essence God forgives sin by simply willing it, and offers the same thing he does now, but no sacrifice. No attempt to have understand the cost of not only forgiveness but the wage of sin it self. So why the need to 'convert?' The big question or argument then becomes why can just God will me into heaven as he willed away my sin?
Christianity would still work to a degree, but our understanding of God and His standards would be a mystery to us. As it is now we know who we are, why Christ had to die and have some idea of the cost to God.
(August 21, 2013 at 11:05 am)max-greece Wrote: Jesus was only seen by the Jews. They weren't convinced. Doesn't appear to have been a resounding success to me. That he thought of himself as the Jewish messiah only makes it worse.Not true. A large portion of the Jewish population was not only convinced, but converted. But once they converted the Jews who did not, did not want the converted Jews to call themselves Jews. Hence the term Christian.
The way it comes across in marks gospel the non Jews were a booby prize that Jesus got for a good try.
Once a Jew converted he was no long a member of the tribe. That is why there are no "Jewish" believers in Christ.
(August 21, 2013 at 11:17 am)Minimalist Wrote: According to the jews jesus was a total flop. Just some schmendrick who did none of the things that moshiach was supposed to do and got himself killed in the process.oi-veh...
Feh!
See above.
(August 21, 2013 at 11:20 am)Tonus Wrote: True, it's a nonsensical story, both the typical version and yours.Actually biblical christianity is the version of Christianity that must adhear to the bible as its one and only source for its doctrine.
I agree, seeing as there are thousands of "versions" of it.
Biblical Christianity itself is something that someone made up, and that people continue to interpret and re-interpret as time goes on. The lack of any unified interpretation and the poor/sloppy explanations of god, his nature, and his actions in the Bible make it quite easy to point out the paradoxes.
For the sake of fun and pedantry, you can consider it philosophically!
I selected option 3 because it seems the most plausible one if the god of the Bible exists. If we are made in his image, why wouldn't this be the third or fourth universe he created? Men are imaginative and inventive, but we tend to have to go through many iterations of a design before we get it right, then we improve upon it as we go.
If we reflect god's qualities and god really is the pinnacle of perfection, he'd have to be the ultimate inventor... constantly creating stuff that didn't work and improving as he went until he wound up with something workable and could start to improve it. The current reality is probably Beta Phase 2, or something. Drich is what god would call an "unhandled exception."
Do you have any numbers for this large proportion of Jews that converted? I can't find anything on it but at the same time there doesn't appear to be any great reduction in the number of Jews in the century following Jesus' death.
Most sources I have seen cite the majority of Jews as not being convinced and therefore remaining Jewish.
