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John the Baptist
#39
RE: John the Baptist
(September 6, 2013 at 9:02 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Because both the Synoptic ministry and the extra-before-that-ministry in John both started with JtB witnessing Jesus as the chosen one with the whole booming voice from above.
Incorrect. In the synoptics, the booming voice is followed by fasting in the desert and temptation by Satan, then after some unspecified amount of time Jesus went to Galilee and preached there. No indication is given of the amount of time between the temptation and going to Galilee.

Matt 4
11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him. 12 Now when Jesus heard that John had been put in prison, He departed to Galilee.

Mark 1
13 And He was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan, and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to Him. 14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

Luke 4
13 Now when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from Him until an opportune time. 14 Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee

There's no language in any of these that precludes the accounts in John.
Quote:Let me map it out for you in case you're having trouble following:
You assert (sort of) that Jesus had a ministry prior to JtB being thrown into prison. So the order of events would be:

1. John's Gospel version of Jesus' meeting with JtB.
2. Extra bit of ministry not reported in the Synoptics.
3. Jesus gets baptized per Synoptic Gospel accounts.
4. JtB is put into prison.

Clear?
No. You need to reverse 2 & 3 for starters.

Quote:Um, no, I'm reading what's clearly there. In the latter part of John chapter 1 Jesus is gathering his disciples and saying "follow me".
In the latter part of John 1 Jesus says "follow me" specifically to Philip, which is probably why you mention it in your argument, but cut off the actual passage at v42.

John 1
43 The following day Jesus wanted to go to Galilee, and He found Philip and said to him, “Follow Me.” 44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

John does not say that Jesus said "follow me" or otherwise called Peter and Andrew at this time. You're reading that into it without support. There is nothing in the gospels that precludes Jesus' having known Peter for some time before calling him to apostleship.
Quote:...and then later...

Quote:John 3:22
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
For John was not yet cast into prison.

So Jesus needs to gather his disciples twice. I'll leave it to you to figure out how that's possible.
Oh, I see your confusion. Apostles are a subset of disciples. It's incorrect to conclude that disciples means apostles unless twelve or some other contextual clue is present.

Quote:Of course it doesn't.

Quick review of this ad hoc apology:

1. Naturally there's nothing to base the assertion on. There is no reference in the narration like "...as before...". There's no reaction from the merchants like "Oh no, not this nut again". There's no quote from Jesus like "I thought I told you..." You'd think two identical temple cleansing events would involve some reference to one another but no.
Long-winded argument from silence.
Quote:2. This was no road side chapel. The temple was a sprawling complex. For one man to run through the temple, single-handedly throwing out all the merchants was nothing less than a miracle. Even the strongest man in the world would be wrestled to the ground after overturning a few tables. Such a miracle if it happened once would be found in the history books. If it happened twice over the course of two full years (or three Passovers) it should have gotten some historian's attention. But Jesus' miracles, like all the supernatural events of the Old Testament, went unnoticed by everyone but the scribes of the Bible.
And another.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 6, 2013 at 11:13 am
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 6, 2013 at 11:53 am
RE: John the Baptist - by ronedee - September 6, 2013 at 12:55 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 6, 2013 at 1:03 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by ronedee - September 6, 2013 at 1:04 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by ronedee - September 6, 2013 at 1:07 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 6, 2013 at 1:11 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 6, 2013 at 1:33 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Drich - September 6, 2013 at 12:22 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by John V - September 6, 2013 at 12:55 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 6, 2013 at 1:29 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by John V - September 6, 2013 at 1:47 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 6, 2013 at 1:54 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by John V - September 6, 2013 at 2:16 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 6, 2013 at 2:31 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by John V - September 6, 2013 at 2:51 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 6, 2013 at 2:57 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 6, 2013 at 1:30 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by John V - September 6, 2013 at 6:12 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 6, 2013 at 9:02 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by John V - September 7, 2013 at 2:23 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 7, 2013 at 3:00 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by John V - September 7, 2013 at 5:08 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 7, 2013 at 6:46 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by John V - September 8, 2013 at 6:28 am
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 8, 2013 at 9:35 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Tonus - September 9, 2013 at 8:46 am
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 6, 2013 at 12:50 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Drich - September 8, 2013 at 1:10 am
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 8, 2013 at 10:19 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Drich - September 9, 2013 at 9:32 am
RE: John the Baptist - by Bad Writer - September 6, 2013 at 12:56 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by ronedee - September 6, 2013 at 12:59 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 6, 2013 at 1:06 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 6, 2013 at 1:09 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 6, 2013 at 1:12 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by John V - September 6, 2013 at 1:17 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 6, 2013 at 1:42 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 6, 2013 at 1:50 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 6, 2013 at 1:43 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 6, 2013 at 2:01 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 6, 2013 at 2:32 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 6, 2013 at 3:40 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 6, 2013 at 3:56 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 6, 2013 at 3:57 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 6, 2013 at 6:15 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 6, 2013 at 9:22 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Bad Writer - September 6, 2013 at 10:07 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 7, 2013 at 5:09 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 8, 2013 at 2:35 am
RE: John the Baptist - by Drich - September 8, 2013 at 3:16 am
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 8, 2013 at 10:07 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Drich - September 9, 2013 at 12:20 am
RE: John the Baptist - by Bad Writer - September 8, 2013 at 3:04 am
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 8, 2013 at 10:31 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 8, 2013 at 10:39 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 8, 2013 at 10:51 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Jackalope - September 8, 2013 at 11:04 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 9, 2013 at 12:39 am
RE: John the Baptist - by John V - September 9, 2013 at 9:20 am
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 9, 2013 at 9:47 am
RE: John the Baptist - by John V - September 9, 2013 at 12:32 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 9, 2013 at 12:51 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by John V - September 9, 2013 at 1:08 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 9, 2013 at 1:47 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by John V - September 9, 2013 at 3:03 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Bad Writer - September 9, 2013 at 1:12 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 9, 2013 at 2:46 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 9, 2013 at 3:01 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by bladevalant546 - September 9, 2013 at 3:06 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 9, 2013 at 3:13 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by bladevalant546 - September 9, 2013 at 3:28 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Vicki Q - September 10, 2013 at 6:32 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by max-greece - September 9, 2013 at 2:49 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 9, 2013 at 2:54 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by bladevalant546 - September 9, 2013 at 2:57 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by DeistPaladin - September 9, 2013 at 3:07 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 9, 2013 at 4:22 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 10, 2013 at 8:13 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Vicki Q - September 11, 2013 at 5:24 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Bad Writer - September 10, 2013 at 8:13 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Tonus - September 11, 2013 at 5:28 am
RE: John the Baptist - by Bad Writer - September 11, 2013 at 10:21 am
RE: John the Baptist - by Drich - September 11, 2013 at 2:46 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 11, 2013 at 3:05 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 11, 2013 at 5:57 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Vicki Q - September 12, 2013 at 6:07 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 12, 2013 at 8:53 pm
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 14, 2013 at 11:01 am
RE: John the Baptist - by Minimalist - September 26, 2013 at 3:23 pm

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