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Why atheism is irrational
#32
RE: Why atheism is irrational
(September 24, 2013 at 11:14 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: A lot of us point to the supposed intelligence of atheists, but what I've come to realize is that most of us have become atheists at quite a young age. Too young, honestly, to have a full grasp of our logical faculties or the world around us. Age 13 or 14 is simply not when your mind is fully developed. This includes the vast majority of atheist intellectuals who become atheists at a young age and just engage in confirmation bias throughout their academic careers.

Does that mean an 8-year old is too young to stop believing in Santa Claus?

(September 24, 2013 at 11:14 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: About matters of the intellect, atheists are very superficially educated. They have a basic foundation down "EVOLUTION RULZ, GOD SUX HAHA I HAVE BIBEL VURSES THAT SUX LOL" but fundamental nuances are often glossed over or missed because their interest is not in knowing things, but in confirming what they want to be true.

I can't speak for anyone else but every time I read something from an apologetics website or hear an argument for the existence of a god or the efficacy of the bible or talk to a christian or whatever I stop and have a moment where I think, "Is this going to be the thing that finally convinces me?" I continue to try very hard to set aside preconceived notions and biases when I read things; the one thing I fully admit to not doing to setting aside all notions of rationality and standards of evidence which is probably why I remain unconvinced and, consequently, an atheist.

I also tend not to like debating christians on the bible precisely because I wasn't raised with it, I was never indoctrinated into a religion and I was never taught how to read the bible from a theological standpoint. I fully own up to the fact that I'm not qualified to tell Christians what their bible means, all I'm comfortable doing is telling them why I think it's total crap.

And finally, I don't think GOD SUX. I don't think he exists.

Quote:So of course, they would "know more" their entire existence depends on their hatred against people who believe in a God!

I don't hate people who believe in a god. I think they're wrong, but I don't hate them by any stretch of the imagination.

(September 25, 2013 at 1:23 am)whateverist Wrote: I've said it before: it doesn't take a genius to be an atheist and neither will it prevent you from being an idiot.

I heard an anecdote somewhat recently about a migrant worker who attended an atheist meetup or group or something that had just been set up in his area and he said, as part of his introduction, that he wasn't very smart and wondered why he didn't believe in a god because the people around him, whom he considered to be smarter than he was, all believed and he thought he was the only person alive who didn't believe in a god.

I think this was in relation to a story I heard about HAFree but it's been a few months since I heard the story so don't quote me on that.

I agree with whateverist. Being a genius is not a prerequisite for being an atheist. Being an intellectual is not a prerequisite for being an atheist. Being especially intelligent is not a prerequisite for being an atheist. All it takes to be an atheist is a lack of belief in any gods, no matter your IQ score, your ability to pass a chemistry test, whether you can write a Pulitzer prize winning novel or whether you can write at all.
Teenaged X-Files obsession + Bermuda Triangle episode + Self-led school research project = Atheist.
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Messages In This Thread
Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 24, 2013 at 11:14 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Silver - September 24, 2013 at 11:16 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Brian37 - September 25, 2013 at 12:30 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pineapplebunnybounce - September 24, 2013 at 11:23 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by artistriley - September 24, 2013 at 11:27 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 24, 2013 at 11:53 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Captain Colostomy - September 24, 2013 at 11:32 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Minimalist - September 24, 2013 at 11:49 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Walking Void - September 24, 2013 at 11:55 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Dragonetti - September 25, 2013 at 12:16 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Ryantology - September 25, 2013 at 12:34 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Whateverist - September 25, 2013 at 1:23 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Kayenneh - September 25, 2013 at 6:20 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by LastPoet - September 27, 2013 at 9:49 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - September 27, 2013 at 9:57 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by LastPoet - September 27, 2013 at 10:23 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - September 27, 2013 at 10:26 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - September 25, 2013 at 6:48 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Cyberman - September 25, 2013 at 6:49 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Cyberman - September 25, 2013 at 6:50 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by gall - September 25, 2013 at 7:47 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Whateverist - September 25, 2013 at 9:32 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by gall - September 25, 2013 at 9:48 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by LastPoet - September 25, 2013 at 10:04 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by LastPoet - September 25, 2013 at 10:17 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by gall - September 25, 2013 at 10:19 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Whateverist - September 25, 2013 at 10:42 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by LastPoet - September 25, 2013 at 10:45 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Cyberman - September 25, 2013 at 10:39 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Faith No More - September 25, 2013 at 9:51 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Chas - September 25, 2013 at 10:27 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Airyaman - September 25, 2013 at 10:40 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Jackalope - September 25, 2013 at 10:40 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Rahul - September 25, 2013 at 10:42 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Whateverist - September 25, 2013 at 10:48 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Clueless Morgan - September 25, 2013 at 11:29 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Wolf - September 25, 2013 at 11:29 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by LastPoet - September 25, 2013 at 11:32 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by JesusHChrist - September 25, 2013 at 11:35 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Heir Apparent - September 25, 2013 at 8:34 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Kayenneh - September 25, 2013 at 12:21 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Cyberman - September 25, 2013 at 8:55 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Brian37 - September 26, 2013 at 10:15 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Doubting Thomas - September 26, 2013 at 10:23 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Brian37 - September 26, 2013 at 10:27 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Doubting Thomas - September 26, 2013 at 9:10 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by bladevalant546 - September 26, 2013 at 10:06 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Faith No More - September 26, 2013 at 10:22 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Angrboda - September 26, 2013 at 12:09 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Faith No More - September 26, 2013 at 1:30 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Faith No More - September 26, 2013 at 4:41 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by little_monkey - September 26, 2013 at 11:07 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by max-greece - September 26, 2013 at 12:18 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Dunno - September 26, 2013 at 1:26 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Lemonvariable72 - September 26, 2013 at 1:29 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 4:33 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Gilgamesh - September 26, 2013 at 4:53 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - September 26, 2013 at 5:41 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 5:56 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Wolf - September 26, 2013 at 8:00 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 8:05 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Silver - September 26, 2013 at 8:36 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by little_monkey - September 27, 2013 at 9:40 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Whateverist - September 27, 2013 at 10:34 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Faith No More - September 27, 2013 at 11:37 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Wolf - September 26, 2013 at 4:43 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by max-greece - September 26, 2013 at 4:45 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Gilgamesh - September 26, 2013 at 4:45 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Ryantology - September 26, 2013 at 4:46 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 5:25 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Gilgamesh - September 26, 2013 at 5:30 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 5:40 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Simon Moon - September 26, 2013 at 5:52 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 6:05 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Wolf - September 26, 2013 at 4:49 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Jiggerj - September 26, 2013 at 4:54 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by freedomfromforum - September 26, 2013 at 5:14 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - September 26, 2013 at 5:28 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Jackalope - September 26, 2013 at 5:44 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Cyberman - September 26, 2013 at 7:26 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 7:43 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Silver - September 26, 2013 at 8:33 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Airyaman - September 26, 2013 at 5:59 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Silver - September 26, 2013 at 6:04 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Simon Moon - September 26, 2013 at 6:12 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Creed of Heresy - September 26, 2013 at 6:27 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 7:05 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Wolf - September 26, 2013 at 8:06 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Creed of Heresy - September 26, 2013 at 9:36 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 9:57 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Creed of Heresy - September 27, 2013 at 12:46 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 27, 2013 at 3:00 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by CleanShavenJesus - September 26, 2013 at 7:09 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - September 26, 2013 at 8:05 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 8:12 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - September 26, 2013 at 8:23 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 8:35 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Silver - September 26, 2013 at 8:38 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Wolf - September 26, 2013 at 8:42 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - September 27, 2013 at 5:28 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Wolf - September 26, 2013 at 8:30 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Simon Moon - September 26, 2013 at 8:31 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 9:11 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Wolf - September 26, 2013 at 9:25 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 9:46 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - September 26, 2013 at 8:10 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Wolf - September 26, 2013 at 8:37 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Writer - September 26, 2013 at 8:41 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Writer - September 26, 2013 at 9:21 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Wolf - September 26, 2013 at 9:53 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 10:00 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Wolf - September 26, 2013 at 10:03 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 10:08 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Silver - September 26, 2013 at 10:11 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Rahul - September 26, 2013 at 10:13 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 10:53 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Rahul - September 26, 2013 at 11:00 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 11:06 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Rahul - September 26, 2013 at 11:12 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 26, 2013 at 11:27 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Rahul - September 27, 2013 at 7:15 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 27, 2013 at 1:05 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Rahul - September 27, 2013 at 6:23 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 27, 2013 at 9:27 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Rahul - September 27, 2013 at 9:33 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 27, 2013 at 9:46 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Silver - September 27, 2013 at 9:48 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Jackalope - September 27, 2013 at 9:53 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Wolf - September 27, 2013 at 6:46 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Captain Colostomy - September 26, 2013 at 9:58 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Ryantology - September 26, 2013 at 9:58 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Writer - September 26, 2013 at 10:05 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Wolf - September 26, 2013 at 10:10 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Wolf - September 26, 2013 at 10:19 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Jackalope - September 26, 2013 at 10:35 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Writer - September 26, 2013 at 10:25 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Captain Colostomy - September 26, 2013 at 10:32 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Cyberman - September 26, 2013 at 10:52 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Fidel_Castronaut - September 27, 2013 at 5:56 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Airyaman - September 27, 2013 at 11:09 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by downbeatplumb - September 27, 2013 at 2:08 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Simon Moon - September 27, 2013 at 2:23 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 27, 2013 at 2:40 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by downbeatplumb - September 30, 2013 at 1:13 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 30, 2013 at 2:11 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Zen Badger - October 1, 2013 at 5:31 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Doubting Thomas - October 1, 2013 at 9:55 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by downbeatplumb - October 1, 2013 at 1:35 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by ManMachine - October 1, 2013 at 4:47 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by downbeatplumb - October 2, 2013 at 1:16 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Mister Agenda - September 27, 2013 at 2:16 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Cyberman - September 27, 2013 at 3:34 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Faith No More - September 27, 2013 at 4:41 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Jackalope - September 27, 2013 at 4:58 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Gilgamesh - September 27, 2013 at 8:49 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Writer - September 27, 2013 at 9:49 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 27, 2013 at 9:55 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Writer - September 27, 2013 at 11:05 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 27, 2013 at 11:50 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Airyaman - September 27, 2013 at 10:25 pm
Re: Why atheism is irrational - by NoraBrimstone - September 27, 2013 at 10:59 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Writer - September 28, 2013 at 12:00 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by c172 - September 28, 2013 at 12:09 am
Re: Why atheism is irrational - by NoraBrimstone - September 28, 2013 at 12:20 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Lemonvariable72 - September 28, 2013 at 12:36 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 28, 2013 at 6:51 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Creed of Heresy - September 28, 2013 at 8:40 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 29, 2013 at 4:03 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Silver - September 29, 2013 at 4:25 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 29, 2013 at 4:45 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Silver - September 29, 2013 at 4:51 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 29, 2013 at 5:03 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Silver - September 29, 2013 at 5:08 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Zazzy - September 30, 2013 at 8:36 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Jackalope - October 1, 2013 at 12:25 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - October 1, 2013 at 4:55 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Zazzy - October 1, 2013 at 5:29 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - October 1, 2013 at 5:42 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Zazzy - October 1, 2013 at 8:37 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - October 1, 2013 at 8:53 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Zazzy - October 1, 2013 at 9:17 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - October 1, 2013 at 9:25 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Writer - October 1, 2013 at 10:51 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - October 2, 2013 at 12:38 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Cato - October 2, 2013 at 1:05 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - October 2, 2013 at 11:49 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - October 3, 2013 at 5:59 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - October 3, 2013 at 6:43 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - October 3, 2013 at 9:40 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Zazzy - October 3, 2013 at 10:34 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Creed of Heresy - October 4, 2013 at 12:09 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - October 4, 2013 at 4:16 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - October 4, 2013 at 4:40 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - October 4, 2013 at 6:42 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - October 4, 2013 at 7:04 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - October 4, 2013 at 7:40 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - October 5, 2013 at 3:13 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - October 5, 2013 at 5:55 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - October 5, 2013 at 10:41 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - October 6, 2013 at 4:48 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - October 9, 2013 at 4:45 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Zazzy - October 3, 2013 at 8:12 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Zazzy - October 2, 2013 at 1:15 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Cato - October 1, 2013 at 11:16 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Wolf - October 1, 2013 at 8:34 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Tonus - October 1, 2013 at 5:38 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Fidel_Castronaut - September 29, 2013 at 4:35 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Fidel_Castronaut - September 29, 2013 at 4:40 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - September 29, 2013 at 4:33 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - September 29, 2013 at 5:11 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - September 29, 2013 at 6:00 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - September 29, 2013 at 6:10 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by gall - September 30, 2013 at 12:01 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - October 1, 2013 at 5:08 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Simsim - October 1, 2013 at 10:32 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by ManMachine - October 1, 2013 at 11:30 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Zazzy - October 1, 2013 at 11:10 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Writer - October 2, 2013 at 12:07 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Writer - October 2, 2013 at 12:52 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - October 2, 2013 at 1:02 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Writer - October 2, 2013 at 11:58 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Captain Colostomy - October 2, 2013 at 12:55 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Brian37 - October 2, 2013 at 12:08 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Creed of Heresy - October 3, 2013 at 8:36 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Airyaman - October 3, 2013 at 8:49 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Writer - October 3, 2013 at 9:46 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Airyaman - October 3, 2013 at 10:44 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - October 9, 2013 at 5:55 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - October 9, 2013 at 8:24 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - October 10, 2013 at 3:41 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - October 10, 2013 at 4:02 pm
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by LastPoet - October 10, 2013 at 3:46 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by pocaracas - October 10, 2013 at 9:29 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Sword of Christ - October 10, 2013 at 5:39 am
RE: Why atheism is irrational - by Bad Wolf - October 10, 2013 at 5:44 am

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