The written records as evidence

[Whateverist]

JPM does a turgidly thorough job of analysing the various 'miracle' stories using the appropriate historical tools. Some are ruthlessly rejected as improbable, others as non liquet, but there is a solid core which is historically likely to have original roots to some sorts of incidents in Jesus ministry. This statement he believes can be made from the history independently of any religious POV. The earliest followers really did believe he did things.

I love that you're a Christian babe that will put a word like "turgid" in your mouth. That's cool.

What JPM stubbornly refuses to do, within the terms of reference set by him (a Protestant, a Catholic and an agnostic locked in a room and forced to produce an agreed statement), is to say whether these events were miracles or something else. He repeatedly reminds us that our worldview model will determine how we read the events- an atheist will interpret the reasons behind them differently to a believer. The beliefs of the earliest followers might be findable historically, but they may not be right.

Are there non-religious models that fit the evidence better than religious ones? There is a reason the earliest church thought Jesus did things that pointed to a particular religious model, and in brief, I would suggest that the hypothesis that is the most economical with the data is that the explanation given by the witnesses was the right one.

Right, because people are rarely mistaken in their observations. Also magic is rarely given the credit it is due as the correct explanation of events. On top of that, what reason would people so closely associated with a new religion have to make false reports which seem to make their belief system more credible? So clearly your account of the most correct explanation has got to be the most economical one. [/sarcasm]

Pity .. you were doing so well with turgidly.

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Aractus, you should know better. Even if the Glorified Jesus came down from the sky and shook their hand, this band of atheists would find some reason not to believe it was true.

Now you're painting the lot of us with a single brush. I'd expect better from such an accomplished artist. Personally if GJ came down from the sky and shook my hand I would offer him tea in the garden. I'd make an effort to get to know him better. Eventually I'd try to clarify some of the Christian mythology. You know, try to get his take on it.