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The Bible is the claim, not the evidence
#86
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence
(December 14, 2013 at 3:01 am)orangebox21 Wrote: My scientific proof that RNA cannot spontaneously exist is: spontaneous existence of RNA has never been scientifically proven. What is supposed to make science so reliable and considered "fact" is that it is built upon the scientific method: "a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses." What is concerning is that modern day science seems to be accepting things that aren't scientific rather than modifying it's hypotheses. As Ksa articulated, given enough time, probabilities lend themselves to the point that probabilities become a realistic likelihood. . This is a statement of intuition, deduction, logic, or whatever word you choose to use, but it is not a statement of science; and as Esquilax so articulated intuition is not the ultimate authority of truth. Because "millions" of years is not observable, measurable, nor testable it cannot be used as scientific explanation. Science demands it be rejected.

Getting back to life as a chemical equation. No doubt life can be observed as a series of chemical equations. This can be observed and tested. This does not mean however that life came into existence through a series of chemical equations and that is where we must begin. In order to test for how life began we must test how life begins. What we can observe now is the result of life continuing, not beginning. So while life continues as a chemical equation it cannot begin as a chemical equation. Evidence? Non-life has never been systematically observed (the scientific method) becoming life. Today I would imagine we can synthesize compounds from raw materials, even organic compounds and so it's conceivable things "happened" into existence because we ourselves can put them in the proper order. But we cannot observe them putting themselves into order. Nor can we bring it to life. We have to use life to create life. Our synthetic compounds need (through processes I don't fully understand) to be added to something that is already alive (a fertilized egg, or spliced into something living) Science seeks to observe but can't quite put it's finger on how to observe/measure/create life itself.

If we cannot test it, if we cannot observe it, if we cannot recreate it, it cannot be deemed scientific. Albert Einstein said this: "No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong." Sounds to me like science requires some faith.

We can test it if it makes predictions about current or future conditions. We can't test a dinosaur but we can predict that life from the Cambrian era in fossil form will fit certain parameters. Evolution CAN make predictions to varying degrees, which means we can test it.

Quote:So given the raw materials and enough time even chance would produce RNA or whatever the raw materials could produce

RNA/DNA research is still in its infancy, we've not been observing or sequencing things for millions of years, only a few decades. Just because something hasn't been done yet, does not been it can't be done ever.

Quote:ecause "millions" of years is not observable, measurable, nor testable it cannot be used as scientific explanation

How old are stars? We can still see the light from them even though some may have died millions of years ago. Every atom in your body is as old as the universe itself.

Quote: This does not mean however that life came into existence through a series of chemical equations and that is where we must begin

It means it's where it probably began. Again, we're discussing a wider framework of science. To suggest that believing RNA could self replicate or what not isn't a scientific claim is not true, a scientific theory attempt to utilise the existing scientific theoretical framework. Conditions are such now that more simple forms of life are often consumed by greater forms of life very quickly etc.

Quote:Because "millions" of years is not observable, measurable, nor testable it cannot be used as scientific explanation. Science demands it be rejected.
Quote:Non-life has never been systematically observed (the scientific method) becoming life

God isn't observable, measurable, testable and neither were the cranks who wrote the new testament. So why on earth would you latch on to that which has the least (read non) evidence going for it? This is age old gap plugging. "We don't know something (yet) so therefore god did it".

These links articulate the response to your pondering better than me:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA210.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB020.html
(June 19, 2013 at 3:23 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: Most Gays have a typical behavior of rejecting religions, because religions consider them as sinners (In Islam they deserve to be killed)
(June 19, 2013 at 3:23 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: I think you are too idiot to know the meaning of idiot for example you have a law to prevent boys under 16 from driving do you think that all boys under 16 are careless and cannot drive properly
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Messages In This Thread
The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 11, 2013 at 1:25 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 11, 2013 at 1:28 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 11, 2013 at 1:35 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Tonus - December 11, 2013 at 1:59 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 11, 2013 at 1:37 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 11, 2013 at 1:40 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 11, 2013 at 1:55 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Drich - December 11, 2013 at 1:43 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by EgoRaptor - December 11, 2013 at 2:53 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Simon Moon - December 11, 2013 at 4:25 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Chas - December 11, 2013 at 7:16 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Duck - December 12, 2013 at 2:59 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 11, 2013 at 1:44 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 11, 2013 at 1:47 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 11, 2013 at 2:04 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Tonus - December 11, 2013 at 2:31 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - December 11, 2013 at 2:19 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 11, 2013 at 3:28 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - December 11, 2013 at 3:32 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Ryantology - December 13, 2013 at 1:36 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Duck - December 13, 2013 at 7:50 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - December 12, 2013 at 10:48 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 12, 2013 at 10:51 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Simon Moon - December 11, 2013 at 4:54 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - December 14, 2013 at 1:34 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 11, 2013 at 2:37 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - December 11, 2013 at 3:40 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Crossless1 - December 11, 2013 at 3:43 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Tonus - December 11, 2013 at 4:12 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Crossless1 - December 11, 2013 at 4:26 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 11, 2013 at 3:53 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - December 12, 2013 at 2:28 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - December 12, 2013 at 3:03 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Duck - December 12, 2013 at 3:12 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by I am God - December 12, 2013 at 4:18 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - December 12, 2013 at 11:12 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - December 13, 2013 at 1:18 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Whateverist - December 13, 2013 at 1:26 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - December 12, 2013 at 9:53 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 11, 2013 at 6:55 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 12, 2013 at 8:37 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - December 11, 2013 at 4:26 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 11, 2013 at 5:38 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - December 12, 2013 at 2:48 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by max-greece - December 14, 2013 at 5:51 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 14, 2013 at 11:57 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 14, 2013 at 1:29 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by ThomM - December 11, 2013 at 6:05 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 11, 2013 at 7:19 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 11, 2013 at 8:32 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 11, 2013 at 10:05 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Tonus - December 11, 2013 at 10:07 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 11, 2013 at 10:08 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Ksa - December 12, 2013 at 9:52 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Ksa - December 12, 2013 at 10:18 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 12, 2013 at 3:03 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 12, 2013 at 3:08 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Ryantology - December 12, 2013 at 8:54 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 12, 2013 at 8:49 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Silver - December 12, 2013 at 9:00 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 12, 2013 at 9:10 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 12, 2013 at 9:41 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Ksa - December 12, 2013 at 11:42 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 13, 2013 at 1:37 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Ryantology - December 13, 2013 at 1:39 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 13, 2013 at 1:39 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 13, 2013 at 8:46 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Duck - December 14, 2013 at 6:09 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by WesOlsen - December 13, 2013 at 6:14 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - December 14, 2013 at 3:01 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - December 14, 2013 at 3:30 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by WesOlsen - December 14, 2013 at 3:45 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Chas - December 14, 2013 at 1:19 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - December 14, 2013 at 1:23 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Chas - December 14, 2013 at 4:27 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 14, 2013 at 4:39 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 14, 2013 at 6:35 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Chas - December 15, 2013 at 11:20 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by WesOlsen - December 15, 2013 at 4:39 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 15, 2013 at 11:52 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Dragonetti - December 17, 2013 at 7:36 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by feeling - December 17, 2013 at 7:39 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Chas - December 17, 2013 at 11:08 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 20, 2013 at 6:36 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 16, 2013 at 9:33 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 17, 2013 at 1:48 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - December 17, 2013 at 1:38 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - December 17, 2013 at 3:01 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by ThomM - December 17, 2013 at 4:07 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by RDK - January 4, 2014 at 1:01 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Chas - December 18, 2013 at 8:57 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 17, 2013 at 2:10 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Zen Badger - December 17, 2013 at 7:22 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 17, 2013 at 7:20 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - December 17, 2013 at 9:07 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 17, 2013 at 9:52 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 18, 2013 at 8:31 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Max_Kolbe - December 18, 2013 at 8:39 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 18, 2013 at 8:40 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Silver - December 18, 2013 at 8:55 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Whateverist - December 18, 2013 at 9:21 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Ksa - December 19, 2013 at 7:55 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 19, 2013 at 10:24 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - December 20, 2013 at 12:08 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - December 20, 2013 at 12:10 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - December 23, 2013 at 12:27 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - December 23, 2013 at 12:38 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - December 24, 2013 at 1:48 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - December 24, 2013 at 2:04 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Wolf - December 20, 2013 at 9:38 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 20, 2013 at 1:52 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - December 24, 2013 at 2:32 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - December 24, 2013 at 3:14 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Tonus - December 24, 2013 at 11:49 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Jackalope - December 24, 2013 at 2:44 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by WesOlsen - December 24, 2013 at 4:05 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 24, 2013 at 10:47 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by WesOlsen - December 24, 2013 at 5:24 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - December 24, 2013 at 6:48 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by WesOlsen - December 25, 2013 at 6:26 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 25, 2013 at 11:31 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by WesOlsen - December 28, 2013 at 5:52 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 28, 2013 at 4:30 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Anomalocaris - December 29, 2013 at 12:35 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 29, 2013 at 2:52 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - December 29, 2013 at 7:55 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Drich - January 4, 2014 at 2:36 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - January 3, 2014 at 11:14 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Wolf - January 4, 2014 at 12:41 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - January 14, 2014 at 7:24 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by WesOlsen - January 14, 2014 at 12:45 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - February 23, 2014 at 7:32 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by shep - February 23, 2014 at 9:14 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - January 19, 2014 at 11:29 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Ryantology - January 19, 2014 at 11:56 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - January 20, 2014 at 12:04 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - January 20, 2014 at 1:46 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - January 21, 2014 at 12:27 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - January 23, 2014 at 11:30 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - January 24, 2014 at 12:17 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Mudhammam - January 25, 2014 at 3:56 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Chas - January 26, 2014 at 11:15 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Ryantology - January 30, 2014 at 4:18 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Wolf - January 30, 2014 at 10:52 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by WesOlsen - January 30, 2014 at 5:35 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - January 31, 2014 at 1:38 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - February 3, 2014 at 10:50 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - February 3, 2014 at 11:53 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - February 9, 2014 at 12:19 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Chas - February 8, 2014 at 7:30 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - January 27, 2014 at 11:18 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Ryantology - January 27, 2014 at 4:21 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - January 20, 2014 at 1:47 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by WesOlsen - January 20, 2014 at 3:17 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Ryantology - January 25, 2014 at 4:12 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by WesOlsen - January 25, 2014 at 4:14 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - January 25, 2014 at 1:55 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Ryantology - January 25, 2014 at 8:31 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - January 25, 2014 at 8:41 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Mudhammam - January 28, 2014 at 12:23 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - January 28, 2014 at 1:39 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Ryantology - February 3, 2014 at 11:01 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - February 8, 2014 at 8:33 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - February 9, 2014 at 1:57 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by truthBtold - February 9, 2014 at 2:23 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by truthBtold - February 9, 2014 at 3:37 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by truthBtold - February 9, 2014 at 7:46 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by truthBtold - February 9, 2014 at 8:04 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - February 10, 2014 at 7:22 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Tonus - February 10, 2014 at 9:28 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Tonus - February 10, 2014 at 10:07 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Tonus - February 10, 2014 at 10:39 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Crossless1 - February 10, 2014 at 10:50 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by DeistPaladin - February 10, 2014 at 10:23 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - February 10, 2014 at 10:36 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - February 11, 2014 at 7:11 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - February 9, 2014 at 9:06 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Chas - February 27, 2014 at 10:59 am
The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Rampant.A.I. - February 10, 2014 at 2:46 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - February 13, 2014 at 2:19 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - February 13, 2014 at 2:48 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - February 19, 2014 at 1:50 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - February 19, 2014 at 2:51 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Ryantology - February 13, 2014 at 3:07 am
The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Rampant.A.I. - February 19, 2014 at 10:00 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Minimalist - February 23, 2014 at 9:41 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - February 23, 2014 at 10:32 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by orangebox21 - February 26, 2014 at 2:49 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - February 26, 2014 at 9:59 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - February 26, 2014 at 11:54 pm
The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Rampant.A.I. - February 26, 2014 at 3:01 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by fr0d0 - February 26, 2014 at 10:12 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - February 27, 2014 at 1:10 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by fr0d0 - February 27, 2014 at 4:15 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - February 27, 2014 at 4:22 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Bad Writer - February 27, 2014 at 9:29 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Ryantology - February 27, 2014 at 10:20 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Mystical - February 27, 2014 at 10:49 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by SteelCurtain - February 26, 2014 at 10:59 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Mystical - February 26, 2014 at 11:30 pm
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by fr0d0 - February 27, 2014 at 4:24 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - February 27, 2014 at 4:27 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by fr0d0 - February 27, 2014 at 4:50 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Esquilax - February 27, 2014 at 11:02 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by Mystical - February 27, 2014 at 5:20 am
RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence - by DeistPaladin - February 27, 2014 at 10:08 am

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