Do Christians actually want evidence?

[Sword of Christ]

No, actually it's not just my opinion: it's factual.

How do you what you just claimed is factual? It could be true sure but this isn't something actually know. So it's your opinion then, an opinion of the evidence. Opinions are open to being wrong/mistaken of course though that applies equally to everyone.

Evidence cannot apply toward two mutually exclusive positions, and in terms of the evidence we have, it does not lead toward theism, let alone christianity.

Obviously it can lead that way if there are 5 billion theists and 2 billion Christians. Of course this faith in the absence of certain factual knowledge but atheists are pretty much in the same boat here, they don't know either. They make a big issue about that in fact like it proves something.

Atheist: "You see I don't know!"

Theist: "...I know you don't know?"

Anything you care to show, all you can present, has a core of wishful thinking tainting your view of it:

Why is it wishful thinking? Is that just your own opinion again? You statements of opinion don't become objective fact because you stated it, that's something to get through here.

one can easily see the generality behind it that puts the lie to the claim.

It's a lie and not a genuine belief people throughout history have sincerely held because of your own opinion again? Do you have a strong faith in the power and strength of your own opinion or something? So like if something matches fully your own opinion it becomes factually true otherwise can be automatically dismissed? It would nice if the world did actually work that way but it doesn't really. It's a little more complicated than that.

Or you could just be honest and not do either.

I being 100% honest but the opinion I have appears to be different from yours. I know perhaps the idea of this will make go like this.



But it's just something to bear in mind if you want to argue for a position. You don't say something is true and it becomes true you have to explain why, show your working here.

The concept of fine tuning begs the question, because it presupposes that there was an aim to be fine tuned toward

Either it was or it was a one in 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 trillion coincidence of pure chance. That would work if you had an infinite assortment of random universes I suppose but if you want to apply Occams Razor you can just say there is one universe and it was purposely made to generate life, intelligence, civilizations and that kind of thing. So that's an opinion I have but I supported it with some reasoning. I could have just said "No God done it" and expect that to be a hard hitting point which is the equivalent of most of your own points.

, which is a concept that you have not demonstrated. See, this is what I mean, when I told you all your claims involve wishful thinking before:

How is it wishful thinking if I'm giving you what I consider to be the rational reasons for the existence of purposeful origin of the universe/life? You see I'm supporting the opinions I have while you just state your opinions as though they were factual true and can't be argued against.

you say that the universe is designed for us because we couldn't live here if things were different, and all I have to do is remind you that the only way that claim is even coherent is if you can show that the universe cares whether we live here or not.

The universe doesn't care about whether we live here or not but it was created by a God who does.

And what did science bring when it made that claim, that theists didn't? Evidence!

If one kind of evidence fits with the other kind of evidence then you kind of have quite a considerable amount of evidence in total. You go where the evidence takes you even if takes you towards some uncomfortable ultimate conclusions. Uncomfortable at first anyway here's a good quote from C.S Lewis.


“In religion, as in war and everything else, comfort is the one thing you cannot get by looking for it. If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end: if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth -- only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin with and, in the end, despair.”

That's from Mere Christianity which a recommended book there, it was written in the 1950s so a little dated but still good.

Or how about a series of coincidences within the physical world that prevents harm from resulting from evil actions?

It's the same difference really, and I doubt it could work how would the natural world suppose to function if nothing could ever harm anything?

The rapist finds himself flaccid around his victim, guns jam before they're fired in anger, etc etc. No violation of free will, and no harm either; I'm a limited human, and I could figure that out.

If you couldn't do these actions no-one would try in the first place and freedom of will is entirely removed. You may as well not bother making the universe at all if you're going to do that. But with this set up you can separate the wheat from the chaff, you have good free independent beings, you have evil free independent beings. Make sure you're on the right team. The right team has God, Jesus Buddha, Confucius or whoever else on it the other team has Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin and so on. If there isn't any freewill to be evil there is no freewill to be good. As a consequence the world is how it is but that's not evidence against God.

Why couldn't your god?

He could be he didn't want to for very seriously good reason. Do you want to be able to be good through your own independent free action or not? If you do you will have to accept that others will have equal freedom to be evil. What applies to you applies to everyone else. But God has given us some guidelines both in revelation and in our own inner heart.

I'm saying if you can stop someone from being hurt and you don't, you're a dick.

It's up to us to prevent people from coming to harm on God behalf, God works through us. That's how we grow spiritually and morally. God wants a relationship with beings like us.

And if you're in possession of information about every murder that's ever taken place and you don't surrender that to the police, you're an accessory.

All evil doers will be brought to justice you don't have to worry about that. But they have to have the freedom to be evil if we are to have the freedom to be good. If we don't have freedom and genuine morality then there is no point.