Is the universe God?

[Esquilax]

Arising naturally over time from what? Something, whatever it is, had to always exist or it came into being at some time. I did state that one of the possibilities was that the universe always existed. Or maybe what the universe came from something that always existed. But science can't answer that question.

See, that's the thing: you're making a lot of declarative statements, but you don't know any more than anyone else what the possibilities are. You're restricting this conversation to two possibilities, based solely on the fact that they're all you can imagine; this is an argument from ignorance.

Also, you say science can't answer this question: how the hell did you decide that?

Like I said, I didn't try to rule out the possibility of the universe always existing. What I said was that the material universe always existed or it created itself from nothing. I guess it could have been created from something else, but something had to be first.

How do you know any of this?

What I said was that if the universe that created itself, it shares a characteristic with the christian God.

So what?

I wasn't trying to do that. I was trying to open people up to the very real possibilty that God could exist and that scientific discovery isn't the only path to knowing that.

So, if this god interacts in the world in any way, then those effects can be tested scientifically. If it doesn't, then it's indistinguishable from a god that doesn't exist, and you have no possible justification for believing it does.

Besides, can you suggest a method for discovering god exists that itself couldn't be tested?