Is the universe God?

[Sword of Christ]

So, slavery in the bible is excusable because some slavery might be comparable to having a low paying job, are you kidding me?

I'm not saying it was right but it was a a fact of life and it was something Christians at the time had to live with. There were Christian abolitionists going right back to the early middle ages there was an undercurrent against it inspired from the humanistic teachings of the gospels. In view of history the claim that Christianity supports slavery doesn't particular stand, we may have still had a legal slave trade today for all we know. The world has undeniably changed in some way, if you want evidence you have evidence there. You don't argue with the results.

No I don't, I'm Australian.

The US can do all the world domination through force and sell the slaves to you seeing as you're a Western nation. It will be like old times. Of course there will be nothing wrong with this if we decide so, in your world view anyway seeing as that's all morality a social contract. Contracts can be changed easily enough and we're the only beings here who get to say if there is no God. You can't really argue with this it would just be the fact. I think you know that it isn't the fact though.

... Yes, I suppose so. I have no wish to do that, for the reasons I outlined in my previous post.

You have empathy for others who are of no benefit to yourself because? You can't explain that because you have no reason for it. You can't use an evolutionary reason either as that operates on the survival of the individual and the related group not the species as a whole. If the Germans had managed to eradicate all the Jews in the world it would be of no evolutionary disadvantage to them their genes would continue just fine.

Looking at the rest of your writing, I see that you've entirely ignored what I actually said in favor of the moral relativism narrative that you'd prefer I believe in. That's quite a pity; I hate having to repeat myself.

Morality would be relative to human opinion if there is no other basis for it. That would be fact if God doesn't exist not what I prefer to believe. What else is it meant to be based on? It's just your opinion, its as good as any other.

But I never said that we get to decide what's right or wrong. Things I don't subscribe to aren't problems for my position.

If God doesn't exist we are the only beings who exist can decide what right and wrong is as it's entirely limited and contained within our own brains. There would be no basis for morality beyond that.

Again, this isn't a decision we get to make

That's what I'm saying to you, you would have to say differently if you don't believe in God.

it's a decision reality gets to make.

Replace the word reality with God. There would be no other form reality besides the human brain that can define what morality is if God doesn't exist.

Harm, a thing that is objectively harmful, is immoral because there is no sense in which it is preferable, and therefore anything that causes harm can generally be said to be immoral.

If harming someone else brings benefit to yourself and/or the people you care about then whats the problem with it? We get to say what is moral after all.

It's a general rule- the harm you sustain from getting a flu shot is easily balanced out by the benefits you get from it- but it's easily applied to slavery.

We had slavery for thousands of years why can't we just bring it back? There is nothing stopping us and it wouldn't do us any harm.

Please, try to address what I've actually said next time, in place of your religious talking points.

These aren't religious talking points just the facts of the world as you view it. You still haven't explained why slavery is wrong. Slavery is as old as civilization itself so why can't we have it?

Because they're human beings, and I happen to care about the well being of humans. Because the social contract I enter into equally saves me from being enslaved by them should the situation change. Because it's far, far more easy to conduct a civil system of society when we aren't encouraging enmity like that.

Easy. No god required.

True but it's just our own opinion if there is no God. An opinion without any basis in any reason or practical purpose if the opinion continues to adhere to that of Christian and/or religious moral values.

... The ones that say slavery is okay?

You still haven't said why it isn't ok. If you have no reason then whats your objection to these passages? I know why I'd object to them. I'm happy to admit that the Bible is flawed and imperfect much like it's human authors.

Demonstrably untrue, and no amount of scrambling to take ownership of positive concepts that existed long before your religion will change that.

God existed eternally moral values existed eternally, through a relationship with God and revelation from God we have learned of his and our own nature. So yes these values existed before Christianity and organised religion but we had such things as slavery, human sacrifice and so on, as we were much less advanced in our knowledge. It's knowledge we still have however much you want to deny it's source.

Facts do need to be based on something: reality.

God is reality that's what I'm saying here. The arguments from morality are particularly strong imo, you know you're on shaky ground here.

Meanwhile, god's word still says that slavery is okay, so we're clearly not getting that foundation from him.

The Bible was written by people who had a covenant with God but they weren't perfect they had their own cultural and their own values and the Bible reflects all of this. They got some things wrong fair enough. The fact you know this is a good enough demonstration of the power of the Force, you're learning much Padawan.

I know, I've been saying that all along. Why do you think that human empathy is insufficient for this?

Why is there such a thing as human empathy? Don't say it's evolution either as evolution doesn't work like that. Even Dawkins wouldn't advise evolutionary morality, Adolf Hitler would.

I really think that says more about you than it does about me.

Says what? I'm not saying I'd be evil if there was no God it's more that you still hold the same morality as any Christian or believer in God. That's because God is real and is still in relationship with you.

Even a small amount of research shows that the golden rule you're quoting predates christianity, and in fact has a secular origin in Babylon.

Wrong again.

God predates Christianity so that's to be expected. What do you think this is all based upon?

I already know why I feel that way; the human capacity for empathy is an evolved trait that helped us survive to become the dominant species on the planet.

We get empathy from the struggle to survive and competition to pass on our DNA the strong surviving and weak perishing? You can say we're a social species but Alequeda terrorists, the Mafia and the Nazi's are sociable enough with their own people. Evolution doesn't operate on a whole species but individuals within the species. So if we want African slaves that's fine. It wouldn't detract from our own survival it would enhance it if anything.

We're social animals that require cooperation to survive, hence the social groups that have tracked with us through out entire evolutionary development.

Again evolution does not operate on that scale, there is a good reason why you would look after children, family and be co-operative with your social group of people who benefit you. What benefit to us our Africans and why can't we have some for slaves? You can't say "evolution says we can't" evolution doesn't care.

Africans, being humans, fall easily within that group of "humans,"

They're a different group of humans living in Africa and we have out-competed them, so we can have dibs on some African slaves. Good hardy physical specimens I'm sure they will be of some use to us. Ah no wait there's something still wrong with doing that isn't there? What could that something be I wonder?

Are you even reading my post? The harm is that the Africans would be trapped in a potentially abusive situation that they can't escape from and receive no remuneration!

It's good you care about the Africans but you care because?...Do you see what saying here?

You know, they'd be enslaved?

I know but in your worldview why can't they be if it won't do us any harm?

Why are you not getting that this is a downside?!

There is a downside for me but what is the downside from your perspective? There isn't one.

Given that I've never said anything other than that morality is based upon reality and not cultural opinion

What reality would this be exactly if it isn't God? The reality of our opinion?

, you're preaching to the choir here. However, your claim that this specific moral teaching is based upon a biblical source is simply wrong, since no such teaching exists in the bible.

I think Jesus, even the Torah kind of did teach against exploiting and oppressing the destitute the poor and the weak which slavery does fall under. We don't have slavery today because of these kinds of moral ideals and this is from God.

The slave owners similarly were inspired by the teachings of Christ to keep their slaves. I already [i]know you can spin the bible to say whatever you happen to want it to, this isn't news. That doesn't mean that the specific interpretations you've endorsed happen to be divinely inspired.

We can say the true teachings of Christ/God got through over the man made errors then.

It means you worship a book of multiple choice teachings.

If there are mistakes they are mistakes flawed humans put in there but the overall message shines through, particularly in the person of Jesus Christ and impact he has had upon the world. The results can be seen and they speak for themselves.

That's not an apt comparison to the story we're talking about, however. How very dishonest of you.

So you like the idea of a religion scamming the poor for profit? That's unusual for an atheist.

Lacking immediate physical danger, there were far more peaceful and rational efforts Jesus could have made, other than acting like a thug.

Like what exactly? What is a heretic Jewish carpenter supposed to do about the corruption and degeneracy of the Jewish faith? For this he was of course put to death by the religious authorities he was putting neck out here when he made his point.

However, given that the people who wrote the bible were a band of bronze age thugs, it makes sense that their characters would behave that way too.

God took a band of bronze age thugs and made a civilized people from them and this was later expanded to cover the world. God had to work with something and a great deal of work had to be done and still has to be done even today, given the amount of injustice, inequality and suffering still present in the world. This is what it's all about, with Christianity there is a mission involved and good works to do.

That doesn't answer the question; you say that god is the foundation for morality, but then you continue to say that there are parts of god's moral teachings that are wrong

We got some things wrong as humans not God. The Bible isn't a pure reflection of God if humans wrote it.

... how do you know what you've chosen to ignore conforms to god's real moral law?

Same way you know.

More importantly, how do you intend to demonstrate god's moral foundation at all?

You can demonstrate it by looking within your own heart (not the organ that pumps blood) and finding the presence of God/Christ there that's how you demonstrate it.

So, your reason is "god says so," even though he actually doesn't, and mine is "slavery harms my fellow man," but somehow your reason is superior to mine, and I'm copying yours?

God is purely good and purely Holy, good is in alignment with God and evil in opposition to God. That is the objective reality of morality the yardstick to measure it by. It's not that you just have instructions in a book and you blindly obey them it's a little more interactive an experience. *Yodas voice* When you are calm and at peace you will know.

"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)"

They may have got a little carried away with those passages but the zeal for God was certainly there. This only applied to apostate Jews not the Gentiles, there was no campaign of genocide against non-Jews. A lot of that was to just to look hardcore and fucking badass anyway and to deter anyone should they even think about following some other god like Baal. A lot of them still did anyway. It's a bit like the Babylonian legal codes that declared death as a punishment for just about everything, they didn't actually put it to practice all that often it just looked impressive on the clay tablets.

How can our moral advancement be through god when the only record you have of what god actually wants says literally the opposite of what your moral sense is telling you?

The Bible is a rough guide and an explanation for morality you don't really want to follow it word for word. God likes you you to think for yourself but he has given you some guidance particularly through Christ who also happens to be God. Early Christians had some serious issues with the Old Testament as well btw these passages were always a problem. Some put it down to an evil impostor God while the God of the gospels was the good one though I think that's taking it a little too far. The Old Testament/Torah has it's moments but it's not as bad as some would like to claim it is, the Jews still revere it as sacred without the NT of course and they aren't bloodthirsty barbarians.

Jesus said that not a word of the law would be changed... just saying.

Gods Law is the same today as it was an eternity ago and will be in an eternity from now it doesn't change. The God as embodied by Jesus Christ is the same God as the Torah of humanity and the universe as a whole.