(February 12, 2014 at 9:16 am)Esquilax Wrote: Okay, let me see if I can't simplify this for you: since I have free will, is it possible for me to live in such a way that I don't sin?
You can choose to try you just won't succeed. Sin refers to your flaws/tendency to screw up which all humans have due to their finite/limited nature and their independence from God. Jesus wasn't independent from God but fully one with God but he was a unique instance of special revelation from God.
Quote:No doubt your answer will be no, since your religion attempts to force us all under the "bad end" umbrella so it can sell us the cure.
You can/should try your best but if you fail it's ok you will still have Gods grace. Even Adolf Hitler would have it if he wanted it though chances are he would never be interested, a lot off people won't ever be but that's the freewill element.
Quote:Given this, you have two options; either you must then admit that we have no choice but to sin through no fault of our own, and god's system is one in which we can never live up by design.
The only way to not be flawed is to be finite and limited so we fail that criteria and to not have independence from God but we have freewill so we fail there as well. So there is a problem there given the nature of the set-up but it's sorted and fine seeing as salvation is from God himself.
Quote: Or you can admit that- as you seem to be implying- that our free will is inherently the source of our sin.
It's an unavoidable consequence of freewill and not being God himself. You will of course want to have freewill.
Quote:Since our free will was instilled via Adam and Eve via the tree of knowledge, then we are being punished due to a facet of our birth that we can't possibly have helped, due to the actions of another.
It's more like the kind of self harm a drug abuser would inflict on themselves.
Quote: This is immoral by design; you wouldn't blame someone for having a birth defect, would you?
The design is good overall if it allows for freewill but it does bring evil, suffering and death into the equation. There were two trees in the Garden of Eden, The tree of knowledge is your freewill this brings sin and death and Jesus on cross is the tree of life this gives you salvation from sin and immortality. So if you put everything together you can see how the universe fits into the context of a loving God. You can see the creation as good and life/freewill as gift, not a gift that can be taken away.
Quote:This system is immoral either way, Sword.
It's a lot better than the system you have in mind.
Come all ye faithful joyful and triumphant.
