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Whats the point of modern science?
#61
RE: Whats the point of modern science?
(February 16, 2014 at 6:30 am)max-greece Wrote: What I am referring to is the idea that ultimately the vast majority of the population will only be able to refer to the answers dogmatically because they are unable, even if willing, to be able to take it further.
Yes, that's a problem, there still needs some kind of control or basis of trust that the specialists are really sticking to the correct methods.
Quote:I don't think educating people in the scientific method will really help as it is the conclusions that are beyond understanding in the vast majority of cases.

I think it will help, because at least they will understand what in principle is going on, and what in principle constitutes good science and what doesn't. So while the particulars are not easily checked by a layperson, it makes a big difference whether I know exactly the method by which the authorities generate knowledge. When there is a controversy, someone knowledgeable in the discussion will be able to explain to me: this and this are the points where research group XYZ didn't follow proper scientific procedure because the, for example, didn't take into account this or this effect. Then I will be in an entirely different position than someone who has no idea about what science is.

Quote:If we look at quantum physics even the physicists are saying that if you think you understand it, you don't. Our logic appears to fail completely at this level.

Lets use an example:

Take one of the simplest electric devices - a switch (not a dimmer switch - a simple on/off switch).

Now a switch can be on and it can be off - but not both at the same time.

And yet a quantum switch can be off and on at the same time (http://dwave.wordpress.com/2011/11/25/qu...-switches/)

This is a really interesting example for me, because I am a theoretical physicist.
As someone doing research in field theory, I have a working knowledge of things quantum and general interest in the wider issues, but I am not exactly an expert on interpretations and tests of quantum mechanics and decoherence theory.
So there are people in the world who have a deeper understanding of decoherence and these problems, but I at least have technical knowledge of quantum mechanics and use it in my day-to-day work. So what is my idea of the quantum light switch... I know how to write superpositions of states mathematically, and what happens with them when the interact with a different system, and over the years I have built a certain amount of intuition what these things do, like a mental picture that goes with thinking about these systems. Do I understand it, though? What does understanding mean?

For say evolutionary biology, I only have the rudimentary technical knowledge that you can get from reading popular literature and absolute entry-level textbooks. So in principle I face the same problem as you do with quantum when someone tells me that speciation works such and such, ok I believe you because there is a consensus among specialists, and they have used the scientific method and rigorous maths to think about it. I don't think the problem is so different for quantum physics only because it is a bit unintuitive if you haven't worked with it.

I am a big fan of science outreach (doing some myself), and I think there is a solution to this problem, and I take myself as someone interested in some aspect of biology as an example. I want a scientist who works on say speciation to explain to me what the things are they did to come to a particular conclusion. I will still not have the detailed technical knowledge to reproduce this myself, but I will have a good idea how in principle this knowledge was obtained. This is a huge difference to religion. If I tell you a certain result we got for say the impact of virtual particles on the production of the Higgs boson, I can tell you an approximation of what happens, and what kind of calculation is done, and then what the result is. You can't check that this is done correctly unless you spend a few years specializing, but it is orders of magnitude better than relying on dogma, no?

Quote:Obviously even a chimp like me can be educated enough to understand the result - but not the why's and wherefore's of it so I end up taking it on faith and that is the point.

If a swtich that is on and off is beyond me - what chance my understanding the universe as it is explained by Quantum Physics at any level other than being able to repeat, parrot fashion, some of the underlying principles and the result?
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Messages In This Thread
Whats the point of modern science? - by The_Thinking_Theist - December 28, 2013 at 3:29 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Angrboda - December 28, 2013 at 3:48 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by CapnAwesome - December 28, 2013 at 3:52 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by StoryBook - December 28, 2013 at 3:54 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Minimalist - December 28, 2013 at 3:56 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Minimalist - December 28, 2013 at 4:04 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by pocaracas - December 29, 2013 at 9:10 am
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - December 28, 2013 at 4:40 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Kayenneh - December 28, 2013 at 5:22 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Ryantology - December 28, 2013 at 6:04 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Zen Badger - December 28, 2013 at 8:16 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by pocaracas - December 28, 2013 at 8:28 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Zen Badger - December 28, 2013 at 8:45 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by arewethereyet - December 28, 2013 at 8:48 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by pocaracas - December 28, 2013 at 9:10 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by EgoRaptor - December 28, 2013 at 10:36 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by The_Thinking_Theist - December 29, 2013 at 12:15 am
Re: RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by StuW - December 29, 2013 at 8:39 am
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Cato - December 29, 2013 at 8:51 am
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Angrboda - December 29, 2013 at 6:47 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Minimalist - December 29, 2013 at 7:01 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Fidel_Castronaut - December 29, 2013 at 8:01 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Chas - December 31, 2013 at 5:11 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Chas - December 31, 2013 at 11:41 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Angrboda - December 31, 2013 at 5:16 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Jackalope - December 31, 2013 at 5:23 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Fidel_Castronaut - December 31, 2013 at 7:55 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Fidel_Castronaut - December 31, 2013 at 9:22 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by LostLocke - December 31, 2013 at 5:30 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Sejanus - December 31, 2013 at 5:41 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Sejanus - December 31, 2013 at 6:55 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Belac Enrobso - December 31, 2013 at 9:28 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Angrboda - January 1, 2014 at 12:17 am
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by The_Thinking_Theist - February 15, 2014 at 10:11 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Ryantology - February 15, 2014 at 10:18 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Cyberman - January 1, 2014 at 5:54 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by pocaracas - January 1, 2014 at 7:36 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Waratah - January 1, 2014 at 6:58 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Mudhammam - January 10, 2014 at 5:53 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Bad Writer - January 10, 2014 at 7:39 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Tonus - February 16, 2014 at 10:15 am
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by salamenfuckyou - January 11, 2014 at 7:12 pm
Whats the point of modern science? - by Rampant.A.I. - February 15, 2014 at 10:51 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by max-greece - February 16, 2014 at 4:46 am
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Angrboda - February 16, 2014 at 5:10 am
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Alex K - February 16, 2014 at 6:12 am
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by max-greece - February 16, 2014 at 6:30 am
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Alex K - February 16, 2014 at 11:28 am
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by FreeTony - February 16, 2014 at 9:53 am
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by SteelCurtain - February 16, 2014 at 12:07 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by max-greece - February 16, 2014 at 2:28 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by SteelCurtain - February 16, 2014 at 2:32 pm
RE: Whats the point of modern science? - by Angrboda - February 16, 2014 at 2:51 pm

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