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Richard Dawkin's big blunder
#69
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder
(March 14, 2014 at 2:31 pm)Esquilax Wrote:
(March 14, 2014 at 2:14 pm)Heywood Wrote: First, I would like to ask you if you can demonstrate cumulative selection without utilizing a target? Has this ever been done?

It's actually kinda begging the question to presume that any natural selection did have a target without demonstrating one... Thinking

If evolution is blind, then shouldn't cumulative selection be demonstrable without a target? This is a fair question.

(March 14, 2014 at 2:31 pm)Esquilax Wrote:
Quote:Second, Do you agree that for any selection criterion, there will exist some set of targets which evolution will home in on?

Yes and no: yes, there are certain ideal traits that reoccur, no they do not constitute a "target" that is being shot for. You're still approaching this backwards: rather than being the end goal, these traits just bear out to be the most useful in a set of given circumstances, and so those mutations that lead to them get favored.

The answer can't be yes and no because that is contradictory. Either evolution homes in on some set of targets as guided by the fitness paradigm, or it doesn't. The answer is yes it does.

Now you're basically claiming these targets don't exist until evolution produces them and therefore I am looking at it "ass backwards". This isn't true because these targets exist as possibilities or potential outcomes. Maybe it would be clearer if the question were phrased:

Do you agree that for any selection criterion, there will exist some set of potential outcomes which evolution will home in on?

(March 14, 2014 at 2:30 pm)max-greece Wrote:
(March 14, 2014 at 2:14 pm)Heywood Wrote: First, I would like to ask you if you can demonstrate cumulative selection without utilizing a target? Has this ever been done?

OK - do you think the person that came up with the wheel had a Ferrari in mind as an end-point - or even a midpoint?

Do you think the Wright brothers considered the 747 as they made their flight?

When the Germans made the V1 and V2 rockets were they thinking of the moon or Mars as possible destinations?

How many do you want?

You listed the 747 as a target for the cumulative selection of manned flight, the Ferrari as a target for the cumulative selection of wheeled transportation, and the moon landing as a target for the cumulative selection of rocketry.

Now can you demonstrate cumulative selection without utilizing a target? That was the question asked.
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Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 8:30 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by LostLocke - March 14, 2014 at 8:39 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 8:41 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Whateverist - March 14, 2014 at 8:46 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 9:00 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Whateverist - March 14, 2014 at 9:16 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 9:20 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Whateverist - March 14, 2014 at 9:25 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mister Agenda - March 14, 2014 at 10:50 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 11:07 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 11:13 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 11:29 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 11:36 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 11:41 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mister Agenda - March 14, 2014 at 11:45 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 11:46 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 12:04 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 12:08 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 12:56 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 12:58 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 2:14 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by max-greece - March 14, 2014 at 2:30 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 6:59 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 14, 2014 at 2:31 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 3:08 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 14, 2014 at 3:23 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 3:33 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 15, 2014 at 1:35 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 15, 2014 at 4:22 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chas - March 15, 2014 at 5:34 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 16, 2014 at 1:08 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by max-greece - March 16, 2014 at 3:03 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by shep - March 16, 2014 at 10:46 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by LostLocke - March 15, 2014 at 7:48 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 15, 2014 at 11:02 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by LostLocke - March 16, 2014 at 9:03 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 4:44 pm
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Faith No More - March 14, 2014 at 11:18 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 11:55 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 11:57 am
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Faith No More - March 14, 2014 at 11:58 am
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by max-greece - March 15, 2014 at 2:08 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Ryantology - March 15, 2014 at 2:05 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chas - March 14, 2014 at 9:57 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 14, 2014 at 9:03 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 9:08 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 14, 2014 at 9:45 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 9:54 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 14, 2014 at 10:00 am
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by max-greece - March 14, 2014 at 9:24 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chad32 - March 14, 2014 at 9:26 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 9:35 am
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 11:04 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 11:21 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 11:25 am
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Faith No More - March 14, 2014 at 11:37 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 11:45 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Ryantology - March 14, 2014 at 3:24 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 14, 2014 at 11:39 am
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Faith No More - March 14, 2014 at 11:29 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 11:37 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 11:45 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Faith No More - March 14, 2014 at 11:51 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Faith No More - March 14, 2014 at 11:33 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by max-greece - March 14, 2014 at 3:24 pm
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 16, 2014 at 1:21 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 10:05 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 16, 2014 at 10:16 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 10:26 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Faith No More - March 16, 2014 at 10:32 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 10:44 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 16, 2014 at 10:56 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 11:09 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 16, 2014 at 11:30 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 4:04 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 17, 2014 at 4:01 am
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 17, 2014 at 7:41 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 18, 2014 at 12:59 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 22, 2014 at 4:15 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 22, 2014 at 4:38 am
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 22, 2014 at 5:24 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 22, 2014 at 5:30 am
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 23, 2014 at 1:31 am
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 11:11 pm
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Faith No More - March 16, 2014 at 8:20 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 9:33 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by shep - March 16, 2014 at 9:53 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 16, 2014 at 10:02 pm
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 17, 2014 at 5:37 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by downbeatplumb - March 17, 2014 at 5:53 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 17, 2014 at 5:58 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by downbeatplumb - March 17, 2014 at 6:06 pm
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 17, 2014 at 10:38 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Bittersmart - March 17, 2014 at 9:16 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mister Agenda - March 17, 2014 at 10:47 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 16, 2014 at 10:33 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Cyberman - March 16, 2014 at 4:20 pm
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 7:44 pm
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Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Rampant.A.I. - March 16, 2014 at 6:06 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 9:54 pm
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by max-greece - March 17, 2014 at 7:08 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 17, 2014 at 7:10 am
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Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Rampant.A.I. - March 17, 2014 at 5:43 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 17, 2014 at 5:49 pm
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Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Rampant.A.I. - March 17, 2014 at 6:44 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 17, 2014 at 9:33 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 17, 2014 at 10:29 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 17, 2014 at 10:52 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 17, 2014 at 10:55 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 17, 2014 at 11:41 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 18, 2014 at 12:09 am
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Bittersmart - March 17, 2014 at 10:44 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chas - March 17, 2014 at 11:04 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 18, 2014 at 12:49 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by max-greece - March 18, 2014 at 2:44 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 18, 2014 at 3:10 am
Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Rampant.A.I. - March 22, 2014 at 2:58 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 22, 2014 at 3:57 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 22, 2014 at 4:08 pm
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by pocaracas - March 22, 2014 at 5:21 pm
Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Rampant.A.I. - March 22, 2014 at 5:34 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 22, 2014 at 6:33 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 22, 2014 at 7:33 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 22, 2014 at 10:38 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 24, 2014 at 7:23 pm
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chas - March 22, 2014 at 10:39 pm
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Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Rampant.A.I. - March 22, 2014 at 7:38 pm
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RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by tor - March 22, 2014 at 8:41 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 24, 2014 at 9:38 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 24, 2014 at 10:27 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 24, 2014 at 11:03 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by JuliaL - March 25, 2014 at 12:03 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 25, 2014 at 4:16 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by pocaracas - March 25, 2014 at 3:36 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 25, 2014 at 5:19 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by pocaracas - March 25, 2014 at 5:41 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 25, 2014 at 5:44 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 25, 2014 at 6:56 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 27, 2014 at 4:38 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 25, 2014 at 5:46 am
Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Rampant.A.I. - March 25, 2014 at 12:19 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 25, 2014 at 7:28 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 25, 2014 at 7:30 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 25, 2014 at 7:36 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 25, 2014 at 7:46 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 27, 2014 at 5:07 pm

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