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Richard Dawkin's big blunder
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder
(March 16, 2014 at 8:20 pm)Faith No More Wrote:
(March 16, 2014 at 10:44 am)Heywood Wrote: Evolution is different from a river. You can replicate a river by the simple act of dumping a whole lot of water on the ground and the river will form its own banks.

If you try to replicate evolution you need to construct those banks before hand.

Now you're not making any sense. A river forms banks based upon gravitational pull and electromagnetism causing the atoms of the river and the banks to be unable to share space. Organisms form based upon random mutations which are then selected due to their benefit towards survival. It's natural processes guiding both.

The point is in replicating a river you don't have to do anything other than let the laws of physics operate on matter. Dump a large amount of water on the ground and something like a river will form.

Replicating Darwinian evolution is not so easy. You have to contrive a selection mechanism. You have to make a judgment about what is going to be a benefit towards survival and what isn't. You cannot replicate Darwinian evolution without making these conscious decisions....at least I haven't seen it. Dawkins' admittedly couldn't do it.

I agree with you that both processes are guided and are natural. Where I disagree is in the assertion that both processes are blind.
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Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 8:30 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by LostLocke - March 14, 2014 at 8:39 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 8:41 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Whateverist - March 14, 2014 at 8:46 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 9:00 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Whateverist - March 14, 2014 at 9:16 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 9:20 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Whateverist - March 14, 2014 at 9:25 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mister Agenda - March 14, 2014 at 10:50 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 11:07 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 11:13 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 11:29 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 11:36 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 11:41 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mister Agenda - March 14, 2014 at 11:45 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 11:46 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 12:04 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 12:08 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 12:56 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 12:58 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 2:14 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by max-greece - March 14, 2014 at 2:30 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 6:59 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 14, 2014 at 2:31 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 3:08 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 14, 2014 at 3:23 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 3:33 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 15, 2014 at 1:35 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 15, 2014 at 4:22 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chas - March 15, 2014 at 5:34 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 16, 2014 at 1:08 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by max-greece - March 16, 2014 at 3:03 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by shep - March 16, 2014 at 10:46 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by LostLocke - March 15, 2014 at 7:48 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 15, 2014 at 11:02 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by LostLocke - March 16, 2014 at 9:03 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 4:44 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chas - March 14, 2014 at 7:11 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 14, 2014 at 12:12 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Faith No More - March 14, 2014 at 11:18 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 11:55 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 11:57 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 12:10 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 12:12 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Faith No More - March 14, 2014 at 11:58 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Jovanian Teapot - March 14, 2014 at 5:07 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 5:45 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Jovanian Teapot - March 14, 2014 at 6:00 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 6:33 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by max-greece - March 15, 2014 at 2:08 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Ryantology - March 15, 2014 at 2:05 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chas - March 14, 2014 at 9:57 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 14, 2014 at 9:03 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 9:08 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 14, 2014 at 9:45 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 9:54 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 14, 2014 at 10:00 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 10:05 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by max-greece - March 14, 2014 at 9:24 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chad32 - March 14, 2014 at 9:26 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 9:35 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 10:00 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 10:54 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 11:04 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 11:21 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 11:25 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mister Agenda - March 14, 2014 at 11:35 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Faith No More - March 14, 2014 at 11:37 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 11:45 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Ryantology - March 14, 2014 at 3:24 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 14, 2014 at 11:39 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by downbeatplumb - March 14, 2014 at 12:21 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by pocaracas - March 14, 2014 at 11:25 am
RE: Richard Dawkins's big blunder - by Chas - March 14, 2014 at 1:03 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Tonus - March 14, 2014 at 2:39 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chas - March 14, 2014 at 9:52 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Anomalocaris - March 14, 2014 at 10:06 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 10:08 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by pocaracas - March 14, 2014 at 10:06 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by JesusHChrist - March 14, 2014 at 10:15 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Faith No More - March 14, 2014 at 10:48 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mister Agenda - March 14, 2014 at 11:03 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by JesusHChrist - March 14, 2014 at 11:14 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by pocaracas - March 14, 2014 at 11:17 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mister Agenda - March 14, 2014 at 11:25 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Faith No More - March 14, 2014 at 11:29 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 11:37 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 14, 2014 at 11:45 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Faith No More - March 14, 2014 at 11:51 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Faith No More - March 14, 2014 at 11:33 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by max-greece - March 14, 2014 at 3:24 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 14, 2014 at 4:13 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by pocaracas - March 14, 2014 at 4:29 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by max-greece - March 14, 2014 at 5:40 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by downbeatplumb - March 14, 2014 at 3:30 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by pocaracas - March 14, 2014 at 4:09 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Doubting Thomas - March 14, 2014 at 4:14 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by jesus_wept - March 15, 2014 at 6:06 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Tonus - March 15, 2014 at 12:12 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 16, 2014 at 1:21 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 10:05 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 16, 2014 at 10:16 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 10:26 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Faith No More - March 16, 2014 at 10:32 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 10:44 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 16, 2014 at 10:56 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 11:09 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 16, 2014 at 11:30 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 4:04 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 17, 2014 at 4:01 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 17, 2014 at 4:15 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 17, 2014 at 5:09 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by downbeatplumb - March 17, 2014 at 5:22 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chas - March 17, 2014 at 6:14 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 17, 2014 at 6:53 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chas - March 17, 2014 at 6:57 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 17, 2014 at 7:41 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 18, 2014 at 12:59 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 22, 2014 at 4:15 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 22, 2014 at 4:38 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 22, 2014 at 5:09 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 22, 2014 at 5:24 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 22, 2014 at 5:30 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 22, 2014 at 5:58 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 22, 2014 at 1:56 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 22, 2014 at 2:43 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 22, 2014 at 3:14 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 22, 2014 at 4:43 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 22, 2014 at 4:53 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 22, 2014 at 4:04 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 22, 2014 at 4:18 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 23, 2014 at 1:31 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 22, 2014 at 7:23 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Angrboda - March 22, 2014 at 12:03 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chas - March 17, 2014 at 7:43 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Fidel_Castronaut - March 16, 2014 at 4:11 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 4:52 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Fidel_Castronaut - March 16, 2014 at 5:42 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 11:11 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by max-greece - March 17, 2014 at 2:56 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Faith No More - March 16, 2014 at 8:20 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 9:33 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by shep - March 16, 2014 at 9:53 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 16, 2014 at 10:02 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 10:28 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 16, 2014 at 11:35 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 17, 2014 at 5:37 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by downbeatplumb - March 17, 2014 at 5:53 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 17, 2014 at 5:58 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by downbeatplumb - March 17, 2014 at 6:06 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by pocaracas - March 17, 2014 at 6:08 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 17, 2014 at 10:38 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Bittersmart - March 17, 2014 at 9:16 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mister Agenda - March 17, 2014 at 10:47 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 16, 2014 at 10:33 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Cyberman - March 16, 2014 at 4:20 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Fidel_Castronaut - March 16, 2014 at 4:22 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Angrboda - March 17, 2014 at 9:02 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by rsb - March 16, 2014 at 2:07 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 16, 2014 at 4:28 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 16, 2014 at 6:31 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Cyberman - March 16, 2014 at 4:23 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Fidel_Castronaut - March 16, 2014 at 4:27 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 16, 2014 at 5:46 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 7:44 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 17, 2014 at 2:06 am
Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Rampant.A.I. - March 16, 2014 at 6:06 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 16, 2014 at 9:54 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by pocaracas - March 17, 2014 at 5:47 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by max-greece - March 17, 2014 at 7:08 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 17, 2014 at 7:10 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by max-greece - March 17, 2014 at 7:12 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 17, 2014 at 7:19 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by pocaracas - March 17, 2014 at 7:43 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 17, 2014 at 9:27 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 17, 2014 at 9:29 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 17, 2014 at 9:52 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 17, 2014 at 10:12 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 17, 2014 at 10:30 am
Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Rampant.A.I. - March 17, 2014 at 11:22 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 17, 2014 at 5:13 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Phatt Matt s - March 17, 2014 at 5:23 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 17, 2014 at 5:25 pm
Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Rampant.A.I. - March 17, 2014 at 5:25 pm
Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Rampant.A.I. - March 17, 2014 at 5:43 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 17, 2014 at 5:49 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Bittersmart - March 17, 2014 at 10:35 pm
Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Rampant.A.I. - March 17, 2014 at 6:44 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 17, 2014 at 9:33 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 17, 2014 at 10:29 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 17, 2014 at 10:52 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 17, 2014 at 10:55 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 17, 2014 at 11:41 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 18, 2014 at 12:09 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chas - March 18, 2014 at 12:10 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Bittersmart - March 17, 2014 at 10:44 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chas - March 17, 2014 at 11:04 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 18, 2014 at 12:49 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by max-greece - March 18, 2014 at 2:44 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 18, 2014 at 3:10 am
Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Rampant.A.I. - March 22, 2014 at 2:58 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 22, 2014 at 3:57 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 22, 2014 at 4:08 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 22, 2014 at 4:11 pm
Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Rampant.A.I. - March 22, 2014 at 5:20 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by pocaracas - March 22, 2014 at 5:21 pm
Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Rampant.A.I. - March 22, 2014 at 5:34 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 22, 2014 at 6:33 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 22, 2014 at 7:33 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 22, 2014 at 10:38 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 24, 2014 at 7:23 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 24, 2014 at 8:47 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 24, 2014 at 9:16 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 24, 2014 at 9:25 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 24, 2014 at 9:37 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chas - March 25, 2014 at 12:02 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chas - March 22, 2014 at 10:39 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Chas - March 22, 2014 at 6:58 pm
Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Rampant.A.I. - March 22, 2014 at 7:38 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by pocaracas - March 22, 2014 at 7:39 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 22, 2014 at 7:47 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by pocaracas - March 22, 2014 at 8:06 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 22, 2014 at 8:12 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by pocaracas - March 23, 2014 at 7:28 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by tor - March 22, 2014 at 8:41 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 24, 2014 at 9:38 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 24, 2014 at 10:27 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 24, 2014 at 11:03 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by JuliaL - March 25, 2014 at 12:03 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 25, 2014 at 4:16 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by pocaracas - March 25, 2014 at 3:36 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 25, 2014 at 5:19 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by pocaracas - March 25, 2014 at 5:41 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 25, 2014 at 5:44 am
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 25, 2014 at 6:56 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Esquilax - March 27, 2014 at 4:38 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Mudhammam - March 25, 2014 at 5:46 am
Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Rampant.A.I. - March 25, 2014 at 12:19 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 25, 2014 at 7:28 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 25, 2014 at 7:30 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 25, 2014 at 7:36 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Heywood - March 25, 2014 at 7:46 pm
RE: Richard Dawkin's big blunder - by Alex K - March 27, 2014 at 5:07 pm

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