RE: The Fall as Allegorical Fiction.
July 20, 2014 at 12:34 pm
(This post was last modified: July 20, 2014 at 12:38 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
@Boru
I'd say yes, it does matter. All that the bible doesn't represent aside - the stories contained therein are among the earliest in western literary tradition. It would be difficult to understand how a set of narratives that didn't have anything meaningful to say about the human condition would be so resilient. If talented hands hand't made such compelling fiction to begin with it's unlikely that we'd be discussing it (or the religious traditions that sprang from it) in the here and now. I don't know that appreciating allegory would be seen as backpedaling by the folks who had a hand in creating the narrative. If they didn't intend it to be thus we're looking at an allegorical accident in nearly every verse.
It isn't a powerful little fable -because- it's true, even if it were true, and it doesn't lose it's power just because it's false, even if it were false. That shame has it's origin in knowledge is a commentary that doesn't rely on the narrative being factually accurate. That we have a different experience of life as children than we do as adults, and due in no small part to the knowledge we've gained, again, doesn't rely on the narrative being factually accurate. I think it's important to remember that the specifics of the curse are (or would have been) absolutely factual. Absolutely rooted in reality and the storytellers experience.
Yes, it's a just-so story no matter how one reads it, but as far as allegory goes, as far as fables are concerned (hello talking snake!) it's at least as competent as anything attr. to Aesop. We wouldn't demand that there actually be some historical race between a tortoise and a hare - for that narrative to have value...and we certainly wouldn't point to any group of nutters that believe that it -is- factual as a criticism of the narrative.
@FreeTony -
Funny you should ask that..because the very next vignette is a story about the first murder, what motivated it - and the consequences that flow from it. When's the last time you saw a 5 year old murder another 5 year old? "Before the fall" invokes a childlike innocence, a situation in which even if we had done wrong, we wouldn't have known it, and as such couldn't be culpable for it in the sense that an adult might be (who acts from a position of knowledge). God doesn't deign to give us the law in genesis 3, he just has the one rule, backed up by a little white lie, I think that fathers can relate. I would eat the fruit myself, yes (and ultimately our two heroes do decide to eat the fruit)- but from within the vantage point of the narrative eating the fruit is morally neutral. They didn't have any knowledge of good or evil - so that isn't something that would have figured into their decision about eating the fruit. Like a child disobeying an earthly father, there isn't much malice involved - and perhaps...had that father explained what the tree would actually do..they might have had reason for pause.
Then again, these are children, so explaining something complicated (as per the allegory) might have been pointless. I understand that my children will see through my little fibs, that I can't possibly prevent them from losing their innocence. I also accept that the example of my life, and the garden that I've made for my children contains within it the fruits of knowledge. I'm going to keep them from eating the fruit for as long as possible, but when they do.....I'll cast them out into the world to make their own way just as well. Whether or not it makes good allegory has nothing to do with whether or not any of it actually happened. Granted, it might not appeal to you. It's fiction after all, and it's hard to write a story that appeals to everyone. That said, the cruelty of god, in this regard, is hyperbole. Even the authors would have known from their own experience that it doesn't take a curse from god for human beings to enter adulthood or lose their innocence. The curse is part of the just-so form that this story is told in. But so what if god is cruel in the narrative? That's a common theme about gods. If they weren't cruel we'd have a hard time squaring away the nastier shit we see around us. The greeks did that chestnut to a t..lol.
@Whatev
Could be, yeah, our desire for a place at the big boys table comes with some side effects. Every so often I wish my kids could have continued to be babies, and every now and again I'm reminded that ignorance can at least seem like bliss. Agreed about the irony, you put it better than I could have, in fewer words.
I'd say yes, it does matter. All that the bible doesn't represent aside - the stories contained therein are among the earliest in western literary tradition. It would be difficult to understand how a set of narratives that didn't have anything meaningful to say about the human condition would be so resilient. If talented hands hand't made such compelling fiction to begin with it's unlikely that we'd be discussing it (or the religious traditions that sprang from it) in the here and now. I don't know that appreciating allegory would be seen as backpedaling by the folks who had a hand in creating the narrative. If they didn't intend it to be thus we're looking at an allegorical accident in nearly every verse.
It isn't a powerful little fable -because- it's true, even if it were true, and it doesn't lose it's power just because it's false, even if it were false. That shame has it's origin in knowledge is a commentary that doesn't rely on the narrative being factually accurate. That we have a different experience of life as children than we do as adults, and due in no small part to the knowledge we've gained, again, doesn't rely on the narrative being factually accurate. I think it's important to remember that the specifics of the curse are (or would have been) absolutely factual. Absolutely rooted in reality and the storytellers experience.
Yes, it's a just-so story no matter how one reads it, but as far as allegory goes, as far as fables are concerned (hello talking snake!) it's at least as competent as anything attr. to Aesop. We wouldn't demand that there actually be some historical race between a tortoise and a hare - for that narrative to have value...and we certainly wouldn't point to any group of nutters that believe that it -is- factual as a criticism of the narrative.
@FreeTony -
Funny you should ask that..because the very next vignette is a story about the first murder, what motivated it - and the consequences that flow from it. When's the last time you saw a 5 year old murder another 5 year old? "Before the fall" invokes a childlike innocence, a situation in which even if we had done wrong, we wouldn't have known it, and as such couldn't be culpable for it in the sense that an adult might be (who acts from a position of knowledge). God doesn't deign to give us the law in genesis 3, he just has the one rule, backed up by a little white lie, I think that fathers can relate. I would eat the fruit myself, yes (and ultimately our two heroes do decide to eat the fruit)- but from within the vantage point of the narrative eating the fruit is morally neutral. They didn't have any knowledge of good or evil - so that isn't something that would have figured into their decision about eating the fruit. Like a child disobeying an earthly father, there isn't much malice involved - and perhaps...had that father explained what the tree would actually do..they might have had reason for pause.
Then again, these are children, so explaining something complicated (as per the allegory) might have been pointless. I understand that my children will see through my little fibs, that I can't possibly prevent them from losing their innocence. I also accept that the example of my life, and the garden that I've made for my children contains within it the fruits of knowledge. I'm going to keep them from eating the fruit for as long as possible, but when they do.....I'll cast them out into the world to make their own way just as well. Whether or not it makes good allegory has nothing to do with whether or not any of it actually happened. Granted, it might not appeal to you. It's fiction after all, and it's hard to write a story that appeals to everyone. That said, the cruelty of god, in this regard, is hyperbole. Even the authors would have known from their own experience that it doesn't take a curse from god for human beings to enter adulthood or lose their innocence. The curse is part of the just-so form that this story is told in. But so what if god is cruel in the narrative? That's a common theme about gods. If they weren't cruel we'd have a hard time squaring away the nastier shit we see around us. The greeks did that chestnut to a t..lol.
@Whatev
Could be, yeah, our desire for a place at the big boys table comes with some side effects. Every so often I wish my kids could have continued to be babies, and every now and again I'm reminded that ignorance can at least seem like bliss. Agreed about the irony, you put it better than I could have, in fewer words.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
