God's self esteem and the human free will : NO FORCED CONVERSION WITH THE SWORD

[pocaracas]

And what comes after? The fact that people could tell this back then only comes to show that people weren't all as dumb as we, today, like to paint them...
When you look at it properly, all the classical greek and roman authors and philosophers were quite smart.

Anyway, what comes after? What's the reasoned argument that defeats this objection, according to the book?

They weren't TBH. I always believed humans were pretty smart since day 1 -hence no monkey to man stuff-.
They used to think & analyze pretty much like us, that's why a Quran read 1400 years ago has a similar effect on the modern brain as the ancient brain.

Reality doesn't care what you believe in.
It just is.
And yes, people back then were as smart as we are today... they just didn't have access to the same amount of accumulated human knowledge.

The reason behind sending prophets as humans is simply to disproof Satan's false claims about how sinful & filthy humans are. The story of Satan is something I posted here a lot, so I won't post it again, you'll find it in many verses in the Quran.

Oh, ffs.... [facepalm!]

Really?!

Justify a fairy tale with another fairy tale?
Forgive me for noticing the circular reasoning in there and dismissing it entirely.

With every prophet sent, god shows to satan how strong humans can get with god's support, how faithful they can get with god's support, without even seeing angels or god. Some humans would instantly believe, just by following logic & heart.

You know what prophets are?
People who lived some time ago and who claimed to have some sort of contact with the supernatural.
How many mental disturbances can you list that yield the same kind of self-impression?
I'll give you a hint to one: Van Gogh.

Second, could they be con artists? Could they just know how to manipulate people? There are such people today, some of whom run worshiping temples of various religions... some make up their own... and still people join in!
Some have admitted they were conning people... but the cult they created survived and is still around... people still believe in a known con. Can you believe that?

It also serves another purpose, which is the hammer of god hitting the ego nerve of people. ya know, when people think they know it all, that they also believe they have the right to make fun & kill those who oppose them.

You sound like you need to open your eyes...

Here, watch them all:
Youtube playlist "Why do People Laugh at Creationists?"
Poor Thunderf00t has been at it since 2007... He's built up quite a collection of people confident that they know it all... and then he just shows how wrong those people are, according to our current understanding of those things those people speak of.

It's always the condition, mate. God sends a man prophet, a lot of people start making fun of him & turn his life into a living hell, just because deep inside they thought they know it all. So god deceived them, to let the darkness of their hearts shine, with that prophet the center of attention.

"always"?
Moses.

History marked that Rome tortured Christians & threw them to lions in the arena,

Yes, at some point the christians were a nuisance.
But before they became a nuisance, Rome allowed all religions to anyone.
Now, learn a bit more about how much a nuisance those particular christians were.

marked that Mohammed peace be upon him & his followers saw hell in Mecca at the hands of the heathens,

And who started the conflict?
Can't you imagine some way for a god to send a message to.. oh, I don't know... everyone[!] thus preventing such "hell" that a few people and corresponding followers suffer at the hands of other people.

How do these lunatics get followers is beyond me... but I've already told you that people will stick to a belief, even if it becomes known as a con... so whatever. WAR was the outcome of the revelation that Mohammed got. Congratz, god, you played right into the devil's hand!

marked that Jews saw hell under the hands of the Pharaoh.

What?
Which jews and which pharaoh?

You say wrong.
Logical thinking is independent of ego.

Science proved that the brain operates in patterns. Experience built upon experience ; resulting a unique pattern. So, if ego penetrated that pattern, believe me even your logic will be built upon ego, at least to some extent.

That's what I believe in.

logic is independent from the brain. The logic that we're aware of may be dependent on our current understanding of 3-D geometry... it's difficult to think in 4D... much less 5D... much much less in 6D... and so on....

No it wasn't.
It was meant to the people in or around the arabian peninsula.

Also, why make it arab? A language which is extremely difficult to translate to any other keeping the meaning (and multiple meanings) intact?

Why not make things the proper and right way?

The Quran itself says it's universal !

No it's not... no matter what it says.
The Philosopher's Stone states that wizards go to a special school, they get there by a train that leaves the station from a platform only accessible by going through an apparent wall.
Does that make it so?

Don't you think your argument proves that Islam is the right religion ? or at least point at that direction ?
Because, despite the language you say is "hard", Islam did spread to cover the whole globe & today Muslims are a billion..

So if Arabic wasn't convenient islam would've vanished wouldn't it ?

So if water wasn't wet, the pen wouldn't fall when I dropped it, right?

There are now about 7 billion people on the planet. You claim 1 billion to be muslim... what happened to the other 6 billion? God failed?
Oh, and I'm not even going into the problem of all the different sects within islam.
The same goes for the christians.
Again, your god is incompetent.
The christian god is incompetent
The jew god is even more incompetent.
Heck.. all gods are incompetent, as they FAILED to make everyone know that they exist.... that is, if they (or the only one) actually want people to acknowledge that they are there.

Maybe there is a god, but it couldn't care less if we, lowly humans, think it exists... this is the most likely god hypothesis, the so-called deistic approach. God has no name, has no influence on the comings and goings on this planet... it just started the whole thing and left it running.

Then, I'm a native arab who never left the middle east -yes sir-, I learned English by myself without teachers or courses & fluent in the language,

I'm impressed! Really. you write well.

I don't see any meanings being lost in the translation !

Not even a single meaning !!
All the verses I copied to you perfectly match the arabic ones meaning wise, not a single word is dropped in the middle.

Islam is for everybody. Don't allow a crazy Arab to convince you it's for arabs only and that "Arabic is the language of Islam". Islam is the language of god. Arabic is a human language that Islam was "described with it".

It can also be described in English & any other language.

Well, I don't know any arabic... I only know that whenever any muslim (except you) starts spewing Qur'an verses in this forum, there's always some reference to the multiple meanings of a few particular arab words.

I'm not a Catholic, Pocaracas. I didn't say "he wouldn't go to hell".
I said " god will judge him, nobody can say either he/she would go to hell".

God will judge. It's non of my business. So I better warn before god judges that poor eskimo guy.

It's the same principle.
How do you think a god would judge someone who's ignorant of the religion for that god? compared to someone who is aware of the existence of that religion, but just can't bring himself to believe in it?

It's the same thing for every abrahamic religion, you know?... Kind of like they were all made up around the same story, but then each put in a few local details. Just enough to set it apart... just enough to justify invading the opponent's territory... just enough for WAR!

Again, that similarity is another good sign that Islam is true, and that Abraham along with all the other dear prophets practiced this faith & preached it at different locations.

It's actually a sign that each new "prophet" was born within a culture where he learned the beliefs of the previous "prophets".
Do try to think outside the box you were put when you were a kid!

War ? All I know is that people took those peaceful religions, started to twist it to fit their needs, then waged war under its name ; falsely .

And their god stood by idly and just let it happen.
So, either the guy wanted that to happen, or didn't care... or didn't exist and, once more, people made up the peaceful religions which were then twisted and blah, blah, blah...

Starting with Christian rome, to Ummayad traitor Mo'aweya ibn abu Sufyan.

Christian Rome? You start too late, my friend...
Go back to Assyria... we can't go much further back than that, because of lack of written records.

And how, pray tell, do you know that?
First, that "god is".
Second, that "god is fair".

Honestly I didn't understand what you mean. Please elaborate.

How do you know that "god is", that god exists?
Simple question.
The most honest answer should be "you don't know, you believe. You believe in the same thing your parents and surrounding society taught you to believe", but you won't say that...

The second question requires the first to be answered.
And if you answer the first and assert that it is the muslim god that exists, then, as I said above, that is an incompetent god. How can you trust anything written by someone who heard a deputy of that god talk to him?
How many layers of incompetence do you accept?

The government thing... well... they do attempt to apply justice, but the maxim of "innocent until proven guilty" does allow some actual wrongdoers from sustaining their just penalty. As all human systems, it is an imperfect system, one that attempts to minimize the injustice.

I don't believe that.
Millions around the world don't believe that -including non muslims-.

What people believe or don't believe has no bearing on reality. How many times must I write this?

Foreign policies of world governments disprove every single word you said about them seeking to limit "injustice".

When america & israel invade, all eyes are blind.
But when Russia does it all eyes are opened.

Foreign policies? really?
A government is in place to govern over a particular people, in a particular geographical location.
Foreign policies exist to allow dealings with other governments, but they are a very small subset of what government is.

When america & israel invade, all eyes are blind.
But when Russia does it all eyes are opened.

HAHAHAHA
Israel... maybe you need to peek at the other thread about Israel. Here, I link it for you: https://atheistforums.org/thread-27574.html.
Enjoy.

The state of Israel is recognized by most countries in the world.
As is Croatia.
If any country invades an internationally recognized state, then all eyes turn that way.
If israel invades... what? it's own territory which has been occupied by palestinians... then it is simply attempting to remove hostile forces from their own country - internal policy, nothing to see.
Now, you may argue that it wasn't their country to begin with and they were the first invaders.... you may... that would have been an invasion that happened in the 1950's.
How about the invasion that happened in the 1000's? who invaded who?
Back to WAR, see?
All that your god accomplished by relaying some arab message to some guy in a cave was 1400 years of WAR. congratz, god, you rule (and bring a nice fixed income to warlords and gun makers)!! And there's no end in sight to that WAR.

As long as moderate people like yourself believe that crap and teach your kids about it, there will be cannon fodder to fuel all the WAR that Mohammed created. And a few extremists will sprout here and there and do even more despicable things.

As long as belief is a requirement to acknowledge the existence of a god, the credibility of the religion claiming that that god exists is null.
No one should accept it as valid... That's why there's such a strong focus on indoctrination in all religions.