Open debate: What does Jesus teach?

[DeistPaladin]

You must see the distinction between a scientific fact and historical fact. One, by definition is repeatable. The other, by definition, it not. The standards of evidence are vastly different with many historical facts falling closer to "more probable than not". So your appeal to authority rebuttal is without merit since who is more qualified to weigh subjective context, evidence, and accounts?

I do see the distinction. I've read the essays by Bart Ehrman. All he offers is ad hominems and other logical fallacies. This is not evidence by any standard. So "the scholars say so" is meaningless unless you can pony up some evidence aside from "stupid mythers".

But let all that go, since I'm a Jesus Mooter. Your burden is not simply to prove that some guy named Yeshua was a doom crier and after he died his followers deified him like those who saw Elvis and urban legends about miracles and wonders began to grow. Your burden is to prove that he actually worked miracles and rose from the dead.

The Gospels are four accounts of the events from the same time period.

Four hopelessly contradictory accounts.

Why aren't these counted in the evidence?

Because even if we're so generous as to omit discussion of the miracles and other supernatural events, the accounts are anonymously written (attributed by "tradition") that record hearsay testimony (they are written by non-witnesses, sometimes about things even with witnesses they quote couldn't have witnessed, making it hearsay on hearsay) that were subjected to all manner of pseudo-epigraphy and interpolation (we know of at least one undisputed and major revision in Mark 16) and they contradict one another and what we know of actual history. In some cases, as with Matthew, they contain blatant lies and so are uncredible testimony. I can elaborate on each of these points as you like.

What other series of ancient events have 4 near-contemporary accounts?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

The existence of Socrates or Alexander the Great is within the realm of what we understand to be the natural universe. The miracle-working godman is extraordinary. I hold such claims about Jesus to a higher standard.

Can you give me examples of meaningful contradictions that would shake any of the basics of Christianity?

Let's begin at the beginning. What decade was Jesus born?

If the accounts were perfect, wouldn't that be evidence of a conspiracy?

No because nobody that I know of suggests a conspiracy.

And did those that saw Elvis quickly meet together and write the most complicated and original body of religious writings, travel the world convicing others of the truth of their new religion, and suffer for their beliefs? If so, then you might have an analogy.

You're using folklore to prove mythology.

The rise of Christianity was unique. It spanned national boarders, races, and cultures in one-two generations and it continued to grow for 2000 years.

That's not unique. Islam did the same.

What tomb today is irrelevant. The people at the time knew which one because the account was specific.

Did people look for a tomb back then?

Making appearances for 40 days does not conflict with Luke 24:50ff.

Yeah, it does.

24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
24:13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
24:33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Your reference to others who might have denied Christ on pain of death is also irrelevant. The argument only works when you are discussing the actual people who you say made up the religion and knew it to be false.

I never said anyone made up the religion.

Can you prove that the original "witnesses" to the resurrection of Jesus went to their deaths for their beliefs?

Your comparison to Jim Jones et al is also a poor analogy. Your examples had psychological problems, control issues, ego maniacs, etc.

Ah, OK. So David Koresh and Jim Jones went to their deaths for what they sincerely believed because they were crazy but the disciples of Jesus did so because they knew The Truth.

Special pleading.

The apostles were about the opposite in character. In addition, these cult leaders pointed to themselves as important, whereas Christianity's early leaders never did.

Jim Jones and David Koresh could also be charming and appear not to be crazy. They did so well enough to draw a following. Not all crazy people seem crazy.

We'll let go how the only detailed accounts of Jesus and the apostles only come to us through scripture and Christian folklore. We'll also let go how we don't have nearly enough information to psycho-analyze them as you have done.

All of that granted and taking your scripture and folklore at face value, you are committing confirmation bias. These are saintly men to you and so you see them as saintly.

Would it surprise you that I see the Paul of Galatians as a bombastic bully, thinking of himself on a mission from his god and accountable to no one? Would it surprise you that I see Jesus as an egotistical cult leader, indistinguishable from David Koresh or Jim Jones? Would it surprise you that I see the early Christians as fanatics, viewing them the same way you would these crazy cultists that you dismiss?

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The Jews have always looked for a political messiah--even to this day.

Clearly, not all Jews bought it. Those who don't today have good reason to think Jesus was not the Messiah, even as the story is written.

Revelation was not first.

Yeah, it was. Even Christian scholars say so. I'll look up the annotations to my Bible when I get home. If you disagree, get a plane ticket to London and take it up with Oxford.

Jews were almost uniquely monotheistic. Making up someone who claimed to be God or equal to God was the exact opposite of what they would expect or want.

...and hence Christology was a divisive issue for a long time, leading to the many factions of Christianity. Today, you have papered over it with the doctrine of "The Trinity".

How did Mark bring Paul down to earth?

Jesus. Not Paul.

Docetics taught that Jesus' body was not real but only seemed real. It does NOT teach that Jesus was a myth.

I didn't say they did.

I merely bring them up to show there was anything but consensus on who and what Jesus was and what he taught. Even when the Bible was penned, Jesus seems a mysterious character.