(September 25, 2014 at 3:10 pm)Madness20 Wrote:(September 25, 2014 at 2:29 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Unexplainable fundamental comlpexity? What does that even mean? Besides, just because something is unexplained currently doesn't mean it's unexplainable, nor does it mean you can toss on some supernatural crap which is in and of itself, unexplainable.I said that as an answer to the argument that saying god is too complex to have been uncreated, or rather, that it is unexplainable, the same attributes do apply to our universe.
(September 25, 2014 at 2:29 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: No, it's really not. Again, you don't get to toss in an eternal cause or creator just because it 'makes sense to you'. That's not how science works.Well it might not be, but i'm trully very very sceptical, if not against, the idea that science might prove some day that "nothing" exists and created something, and that something created everything we have. What about you?
Unless we prove that the laws of non-contradictions and tautological equality are false, i have reasons to believe this is impossible. Unless we disprove that the universe has a balance and nothing is really "lost or generated it just transforms" and several other scientifical and philosophical theories and laws that are consistent with eternity.
(September 25, 2014 at 2:29 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Again, lots of words with a lot of baggage, might want to clarify exactly what you're trying to say here. If by "the complexity of the uncreated cause" you just mean the current state of our reality and how we perceive 'complexity' in nature, then you're out of rope. There's nothing but evidence for natural emergence of complexity, as nature is all we have the ability to measure. Again, you don't get to stick a god on top of everything. We have evidence of nature existing, and that nature has what we call complexity. There is absolutely nothing there to suggest a god or a creator.It's actually the opposite. I'm trying to define some concievable characteristics to our universe, and call it "god" a posteriori by it's characteristics. Let's see, eternal, creative, generating all complexity, first cause, collection of everything, deterministic/logically absolute, potentially infinite and transcending (to all sets). Hmm, yeah, this fits my definition of a God.
If i can prove it? I can't, that's why they are beliefs, not knowledge. I just have "reasonable faith" the universe follows these characteristics.
You can call whatever you want by the "God" label, just don't expect anyone, theists or atheists, to take you seriously.
Also, stop ascribing anthropomorphic characteristics to the universe. It's not "creative" and it doesn't "generate" anything. The laws of nature and physics weren't from an intent or a choice, they just are. And as to your first part about scientists proving "nothing" exists and something came from it (or whatever you were trying to say, it's very hard to folllow), nobody says that the universe came from nothing..that's a very common theist strawman of the big bang theory. Additionally, you don't get to call the universe 'the first cause', because we have no knowledge of the time=0 point or prior to that point. Unless of course you really are just spitballing vaguely-spiritual terms and dart-boarding them onto our scientific unknowns and calling it "god" for shits and giggles, in which case knock yourself out.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
- Thomas Jefferson