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(October 8, 2014 at 1:38 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Is it true that those who reject Christ will be in hell? Yes. Does the video tell the whole story? No.
The video misrepresents Christ and the individual opening the door. The video makes no distinction of the moral condition of the individual opening the door. There is no discussion as to whether or not the individual is guilty of breaking the law or not. It implies that the individual is at least morally neutral and at most innocent. Secondly, it shows Christ as giving an ultimatum. Choose me or go to hell, the choice is up to you. Truthfully His statement is: "You are on your way to hell, but there is a way out. I am the way and the truth and the life, whoever believes in me will not perish but have eternal life."
A better analogy would be as follows. A policeman comes to your door. He shows you video footage of you speeding. You know you were speeding and he knows you were speeding. You have broken the law. The policeman says to you, "I can forgive you your legal debt if you ask me to." How will you respond?
Will you deny that you did anything wrong? Will you argue that the punishment for speeding is unjust and therefore the policeman is being immoral? Will you ask for forgiveness?
(October 7, 2014 at 11:40 am)robvalue Wrote: He could have given only the ability, motivation and thoughts to do good things, and to always be happy doing them.
Why do you think this statement is true?
(October 7, 2014 at 11:10 am)Chad32 Wrote: Why would we not ask such things? We are free willed and curious people.
Please define what you mean by free will.
(October 7, 2014 at 11:10 am)Chad32 Wrote: Why should we just take someone's word for it that they are all knowing and powerful?
If a being exists that is all knowing and powerful then the only way to know this being is all knowing and powerful would be to take His word for it.
It's not a position that the empiricist, rationalist, or skeptic is comfortable taking, having to rely on someone or something else. It is however a more reasonable position. Given that man does not know everything, we would have no way to test something that does know everything.
(October 7, 2014 at 11:10 am)Chad32 Wrote: Kings will say they have a divine right to rule, but they can be toppled like any other if the people are abused enough. That's how Human society works. We need a system that benefits us, and the strong minority may like to push the weak majority down to maintain power, but eventually the weak majority will rise up and overthrow an oppressive ruler. Why? Because they ask questions about their current state of affairs. Why would we not do the same with the idea of a god? Especially since the best idea we have of god comes from people who claim to be inspired by him.
Should a child ever question his parents? Yes. Should a creation ever question his creator, if that was possible? Yes. I know those verses are meant to be rhetorical, and the implied answer is no, but I say the obvious answer should be yes.
Society responding to a king, the majority responding to the minority, children questioning parents, are all examples of human to human relationships. It is non-sequitur to show that what is true of human to human relationships would necessarily be true of human to God relationships.
(October 7, 2014 at 11:10 am)Chad32 Wrote: I know those verses are meant to be rhetorical, and the implied answer is no, but I say the obvious answer should be yes. We should always question, because that's how we gain knowledge and progress as a species.
There is a specific question being addressed in this passage. The verse is not to be expanded in such a way as to support anti-intellectualism. Ironically, the question being asked in the text is answered in the text.
(October 7, 2014 at 10:05 pm)Chad32 Wrote: I know this is a bit random, but if Adam and Eve ate the fruit, and discovered that being naked was wrong, why were they naked in the first place? Nevermind exactly why they thought it was wrong, since people have to be taught that running around naked is wrong.
You can do some research into what theologians say about this. Here is the layman's explanation.
The shame they felt [from being naked] was due to their loss of right standing [righteousness] with God (spiritual death). This is reinforced in that they 'hid' from God. The sacrificial system [the foreshadowing of Christ] was implemented when God slaughtered an animal [a sacrifice for sin] and covered their nakedness [shame from sin]. The covering of their nakedness is an alluding to Christ when His righteousness, through His sacrifice, is imputed to us through faith and covers over us.
The problem of hell is not that it's a punishment. It's that it's a never ending torturous punishment, dealt out for the crime of not worshiping someone. Yahweh hates not being worshiped, created a place of fire that disproportionately punishes people due to it being infinite punishment for infinite crimes, and claims that we need to be saved. Saved from what? Him apparently. He's the one who set everything up. You don't get to play the hero for saving someone from something you caused in the first place. If you set fire to a building, then save everyone inside, you don't get to say you're a hero for saving everyone.
Plus how do you address the problem of it being a fake choice? Slavery or burning for eternity? You get to choose, but neither choice is ideal. If the police officer in your analogy said that your punishment for speeding was burning at the stake, I'm sure you'd have a problem with that. No one is saying they aren't guilty of doing bad things. we're saying the punishment is too severe, and that the main thing we're being punished for is not obeying something we don't even know exists.
What do I mean by free will? The ability to think differently from another person.
You can't know anything just by being told something is true. We can test the claims that this thing makes. Such as the claim that anything you ask for in his name will be given to you. That doesn't happen, even with fervent believers of Jesus.
Well Human to Human relationships is all we have to go on. There's no standard of comparison here. If we're ever to know anything about Human to god relationships, we have to find a god. Unfortunately none has yet to be produced.
I'm not sure why Yahweh would bother slaughtering an animal just to clothe them. Then again, it's probably not really important. Yahweh does what he wants, whether it makes any sense or not.
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."
