RE: Gods supposed perfection
October 11, 2014 at 3:58 am
(This post was last modified: October 11, 2014 at 4:21 am by Wyrd of Gawd.)
(October 2, 2014 at 6:07 pm)MistressD Wrote: I guess perhaps I address this question to theists...if God is so perfect, and created Adam and eve as perfect in his image, then why did they disobey him? If they were created without sin then how is it they came to sin? I'm not talking about the stupid tree of knowledge, I'm asking how it was they were so susceptible to satan? Which leads me to another question, God created satan himself, from what I understand he was a perfect angel, then how is it he also came to sin? This seems to me God is in fact fallible, or else deliberately set us up to fail, seeing as how sin should not exist unless he made it so. As a burgeoning atheist, this is one of the biggest issues I have with theism. I wish to hear as many points of view as possible on this one, not just Christians please.
The Adam & Eve story is just a trope about betrayal. There are countless such stories in the Bible. In the case of Adam & Eve it's about some local rulers, most likely the king of Tyre, who collaborated with the Egyptians against the Assyrians. There was no celestial deity involved. It is just a story about political intrigue and betrayal.
When you think about it just about all of the Bible stories are almost identical to the Adam & Eve story.
(October 7, 2014 at 10:46 am)orangebox21 Wrote:(October 2, 2014 at 6:07 pm)MistressD Wrote: I guess perhaps I address this question to theists...if God is so perfect, and created Adam and eve as perfect in his image, then why did they disobey him? If they were created without sin then how is it they came to sin? I'm not talking about the stupid tree of knowledge, I'm asking how it was they were so susceptible to satan? Which leads me to another question, God created satan himself, from what I understand he was a perfect angel, then how is it he also came to sin? This seems to me God is in fact fallible, or else deliberately set us up to fail, seeing as how sin should not exist unless he made it so. As a burgeoning atheist, this is one of the biggest issues I have with theism. I wish to hear as many points of view as possible on this one, not just Christians please.The answer may offend you, but....
Isaiah 45:9 (9"Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker-- An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands '?) is quoted and expounded in Romans 9:16-24
16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Often we want God to be how we want Him to be, act how we want Him to act, so as to serve our wills. We want to create a God in our image. This is the perspective of humanism interpreting scripture, namely "It should be all about ME, all for MY benefit." Well, who are you oh man that you should.....
That sounds legit but remember the main point. When man ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil he then knew what is good and evil just like God knows the difference. So man is therefore able to judge God's actions as being either good or evil. Man has done that and found God wanting because God's actions are mostly evil. As it says in the New Testament, man will judge angels. It should have also said that man will judge God as well.
(October 9, 2014 at 3:37 am)robvalue Wrote: If the christian (or muslim) god did exist (which they clearly don't) then
(a) It is a dick
(b) I wouldn't worship it
It's about as close to perfect as I am to slam dunking while sitting down.
And as I've made threads about before, even if you take "just looking at stuff" as evidence for god, all that gives you is some sort of god. There is no justification for then just inserted your own god into this, based on some old book written by ignorant war mongers.
There was a great thing I heard on an edition of The Atheist Experience, it went something like this: "The Bible is exactly what you would expect to see if a bunch of people 2000 years ago wrote a book about stuff they knew, and trying to write about a god." How can you possibly tell the difference between a book written by these idiots, and one which is somehow magically imbued with truth? Urgh, it boggles my brain how that book has brainwashed so many people. Or rather, how it has been used to brainwash people. Funny thing is, most christians haven't even read it properly. I wonder how many know what the real 10 commandments are? They are not the ones that are inserted into courthouses and other public places against the first amendment. The real ones, you know, the ones carried around in the ark. The ones that weren't smashed up. Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkCJ8rb8Grw
That's an excellent video. Thanks for sharing.
