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July 15, 2010 at 4:03 am (This post was last modified: July 15, 2010 at 4:04 am by tackattack.)
(July 14, 2010 at 6:55 pm)Welsh cake Wrote:
(July 14, 2010 at 4:39 am)tackattack Wrote: 1- Correct God is not omnipotent if you define omnipotent as just all powerful, and no I don’t believe the universe is infinite. I apologize if my posts seemed vague, that wasn’t my intent.
That IS the definition of one being omnipotent - omnipotence comes from the Latin phrase Omni Potens which means "all-power" i.e. unlimited power. This is normally an attribute or characteristic assigned to your god concept at least as far as monotheistic religions go.
tackattack Wrote:2- You can have the best intentions (good heats) and still have them misplaced. I believe the scriptures are quite clear regarding the destruction of the soul and the day of reckoning. While it’s regrettable the imagery used was in a fiery torment, that’s what I have to go on. The question still remains, if you were given irrefutable evidence (by actually being in the presence) of God, would you have regrets for any of your incorrect life’s view (and the actions caused) from before?
First you attempt a Watchmaker Argument and now you're attempting a pseudo Pascal's Wager here, perhaps unintentionally, but you're still reinforcing the notion of betting on infinity leading to the probability of believing in the wrong god(s) or disbelieving the true one(s). What if the Invisible Pink Unicorn was real? Would you have regrets for subscribing to a false idol instead of her? Here's a tentative suggestion: try reading up on the argument from inconsistent revelations first or you could save time researching and simply watch this brilliantly insightful video from TheraminTrees and QualiaSoup, either way place your bets.
tackattack Wrote:3- Humanity advocated slavery and the murdering of first-born infants, and used God as an excuse. The Bible is clear on doing things for the gain of wealth in this world and unjust murder and simply declaring it God’s will, without the sacrament of confirmation, is not only flagrantly selfish and un Christian, but fanaticism at it’s worst.
Yes that's what happens in the real-world for the various atrocities stated, in the Bible however, it is Yahweh that is speaking in the first-person, he is giving the orders and commandments to his chosen people to murder and/or enslave other peoples and races.
tackattack Wrote:4- As far as oblivion, they didn’t have the science to understand atoms and molecules. When it says you’re destroyed body and soul, it as simple as the atoms that compose your body will decompose and your soul will cease to be.
Point is my atoms *carry on existing*. Your God concept whether he exists or not *cannot* destroy my body (matter) entirely because that would violate the fundamental laws of physics with regards to the Law of Conservation of Mass, so this theologian belief is already proven to be false as far as Empirical laws are concerned and you've yet to demonstrate a soul actually exists, let alone god(s).
tackattack Wrote:5- It’s not a contradictory position. I believe Hell is a place after the judgment where those who aren’t allowed in God’s presence to reside. You won’t be there, at least not for eternity. God as an entity would exists wherever he exists and then wherever he’s not in the nothingness is hell. Hell is a separation from God; sin is doing things that take you farther from God, thus closer to hell.
This is why apologists often assert it is a state, an illusion of separation from God, not a literal place, because even they recognise that within Biblical scriptures Hell is quoted as being in God's (and Jesus') divine inescapable presence because monotheistic religious philosophers assert God is omnipresent i.e. he is everywhere, that subsequently includes the not-so-eternal Hell you assert is true.
tackattack Wrote:6- Yes bottom line you’ll be accountable for your life and depending on your answer to my question in #2 you’ll get your result.
And why conversely is God not accountable for any wrong doing in my life? If God doesn't believe in Gods does that make him an atheist too? Will he be condemned by some higher God/deity for simply not believing without evidence too? ;P
tackattack Wrote:7- I don’t appreciate it’s eternal, because I don’t believe it is. Hell may exist for eternity but how can you be eternally punished and destroyed to the point of oblivion? Simple answer you can’t. I thought I was clear on this before but apparently not. You destroy both soul and body in hell, is pretty clear on its interpretation that hell is a place for your soul to be destroyed to oblivion.
Again, please define what a soul actually is first and how exactly can it be destroyed at all before making aforementioned claims about it.
1- And the vernacular definition among Christians includes the assumption of "within the universe" I think i stated is well in the other thread.
2- Nice video, I wasn't atempting a pascal's wager or a watchmaker arguement. I know little to nothing on those things, I was simply earlier trying to use an analogy similar. And in the later post I was simply trying to get you to answer a question, which you still haven't done. In pursuit of the truth you can take only the material and superficial into account or you can allow your perspective to widen the possibilities. It's not about wagering on which one is right or wrong, it's about coming up with a more correct answer than the rock is a rock and will always be a rock because I only know "a rock".
If the IPU were real I'd believe in that. I'd have regrets that I was wrong specifically but satisfaction in my general direction. See you asked 2 questions and I answered 2. Feel free to try, I'll ask again:
if you were given irrefutable evidence (by actually being in the presence) of God, would you have regrets for any of your incorrect life’s view (and the actions caused) from before?
3- While God speaking directly is the exception, not the rule, it would still have to be weighed against the consciousness and in agreeance within the Church. In few if any of the many references in the Bible is confirmation accomplished. It's far more likely that it happens less then even the Bible attributes it and is probably typically of a selfish or negative desire rather than truly God's will. It is up to the individual to confirm that it's God speaking and not the self, or Satan.
4- No. The compound defined as your body would seperate and become just atoms. All compounds we currently define as bodies (thusly no longer being a body) will deconstruct themselves to atoms as part of the natural process.
5- How can you discombobulate my ideas that badly? Hell is just as eternal as heaven. If heaven is a state of becoming one with God (which I believe it is) then Hell would be the opposite a "state" of being separate from God. If space exists after the universe's end then it would be wherever God isn't residing.
6- I don't see why God wouldn't be accountable. I also don't see why you can't contribute your lacking relationship with God to the "wrong doing" in your life. I attribute both the good and the bad in my life to God and am frequently amazed how from the slightest to the largest bad thing can be used for a selfless and righteous purpose. Accountability lies in the fruits of words and actions. If evil overcomes good then God's plan was flawed and he should be accountable, if good overcomes then God's plan was right.
7- A soul is the hypothetical immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life. You either have a materialstic view or one that allows for the immaterial. I'll assume you're a materialist?
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
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