(July 16, 2010 at 10:38 am)rjh4 Wrote: Sure...but in what sense. Certainly in the sense that it was tolerated. Not necessarily in the sense that it is accepted as a good thing.
Well there is Biblical evidence that what you say is not the case. The evidence is what it says about divorce. Clearly the OT and the Mosaic law allows divorce. You say this would imply approval or that it is good because the Bible is a moral guide. However, the NT indicates otherwise. See Matthew 19:3-9.
Furthermore, the Bible is clear that we should love our neighbors as ourselves and treat others as we want to be treated, both of which when applied to others in the context of personal relationships would indicate that slavery is not good.
So could God not have had the foresight to say that he doesn't approve of slavery, just as he did of the (comparatively minor) crime of divorce? Besides, we all have certain things of which we disapprove, but tolerate, and some which we won't tolerate. For most, slavery (especially the beating of slaves) falls into the latter category. For God, this is only the case when, as Eilonnwy says, the slave dies straight away, as opposed to suffering for days on end. How merciful!
Quote:How does it follow that if God is not created then His attributes serve no purpose? On the other hand, it seem to me that it would follow that if God is not created and God created the universe, He would have done so in such a manner that His attributes do serve a purpose.
Arbitrary as you seem to be applying it to God's nature or attributes seems to imply that God can and will act in an arbitrary way. If I have characterized your position correctly, what is your basis for this? If I have not, please try to clarify your application of the word "arbitrary" as it relates to God.
Purpose is a characteristic which derives from design. A spear has purpose for humans, as it was made by them for spear-like functions. A rock, on the other hand, has attributes which serve no function, as it is the product of random natural forces. God, as a being that just exists, would seem to be more like a rock than a spear.
Quote:I bet this statement could be applied to just about everyone since everyone has some presuppositions (primary assumptions) that they use for their worldview which they use for their morals.
I base my morals on the principles taught in the Bible and particularly the teachings that we should love our neighbors as ourselves and treat others as we want to be treated. Do I always succeed? Sadly, no. But that is what I strive for.
As the passage about slavery which I quoted shows, basing your morals on the Bible is distinctly dodgy. The Golden Rule is no doubt a good basis for morality, but the fact that you emphasise that, rather than any of the morally dubious parts of the OT, suggests that perhaps you don't get your morality from Biblical principles after all.
Quote:I don't know about your verification example...but assuming that the command is of God and I knew this to be true...I still don't know for sure what I would do. I can only guess.
You see...I do know that God commands us to love our neighbors as ourselves and treat others as we want to be treated. Yet I do not always follow those commands as I know I should.
So...in terms of the hypothetical...I would certainly want to follow the command as it is from God but I cannot be sure that I would. Given all of that, I will guess that I would follow it but will reiterate that I think the hypothetical is silly and really serves no relevant purpose, at least as far as I can see.
In my view, the verification example would seem to be far better proof that God has actually commanded something than believing that the words of an ancient book to be an accurate record of his commands. You say the hypothetical is silly, but that's only because you think God would never command such an awful thing. You've yet to show me, though, why he wouldn't.
Quote:What would you do Omni? You get this verification the God exists and He commands you to kill grannies. Would you then become a follower of God? Would you do it? Why or why not?
Maybe I would follow him out of pure self-interest, but I, unlike you, wouldn't have to believe that killing grannies was right, as the basis of my morality is not God's commands, and wouldn't be even if God were real.
'We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.' H.L. Mencken
'False religion' is the ultimate tautology.
'It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions.' Mark Twain
'I care not much for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it.' Abraham Lincoln
'False religion' is the ultimate tautology.
'It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions.' Mark Twain
'I care not much for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it.' Abraham Lincoln
