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Aquinas's Fifth Way
#30
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way
(November 28, 2014 at 11:24 am)ChadWooters Wrote:
(November 26, 2014 at 9:55 pm)Esquilax Wrote: But there is an explanation [for natures regularity]; the cause is not changing…so there is no mechanism evident that would cause the effect to change.
So, why don’t causes produce inconsistent results?

What, you're just going to repeat the question while quoting my answer? There is no mechanism present for causes to produce inconsistent results, so there is no reason why a cause would produce a distinct, separate effect each time. Every observation we have ever made confirms this to be true; you're not going to be able to ignore that by just asserting that regularity is an assumption. It's not: it is an observed, readily confirmable feature of the real world, one that you are asserting is only due to some extra, supernatural layer making it so.

No amount of attempts to shift the burden of proof is going to change that. You are the one making the claim requiring demonstration here, and in fact the "problem" you see only exists if you assume your conclusion from the outset. Without presupposing that the only reason cause and effect works the way it does is magic, your question becomes nonsensical. You haven't even attempted to demonstrate that the natural state of things is total, random chaos even where the laws of physics work, you haven't demonstrated that it all requires an outside agent to keep things consistent, and you seem to have no interest at all in demonstrating that this agent necessarily be supernatural in nature.

Your position relies on a whole lot of unjustified assumptions, and I for one am not going to jump through any of your hoops merely because you keep asking the same questions over and over.

Quote:I say that there is a base cause that that can be apprehended by means of reason, something fundamental that directs causes to their effects. Without such a fundamental cause, there will be (as you point correctly point out, like Hume before you) an infinite recess within the causal chain.

Now that you've asserted the necessity of a base cause, do you care to demonstrate both that necessity, and the existence of, that cause? Because that's where you need to be going from here before you have anything approaching a point. Just the first part would require me to find a base cause too, of course, but we aren't even there yet. One step at a time.

Quote:The first premise acknowledges that some substances, like plants and animals, do have within themselves the power to change. This objection does not apply.

It applies, because for one, you're still talking about causes and effects, just now you're including cases where those causes are internally driven (by outside causes too, let's not forget. Plants and animals cannot cause any effects without drawing in energy from outside.)
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

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Messages In This Thread
Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Neo-Scholastic - November 26, 2014 at 6:05 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by abaris - November 26, 2014 at 6:10 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Ben Davis - November 26, 2014 at 6:13 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Jenny A - November 26, 2014 at 6:14 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Neo-Scholastic - November 26, 2014 at 6:19 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Jenny A - November 26, 2014 at 6:42 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Esquilax - November 26, 2014 at 6:48 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Anomalocaris - November 26, 2014 at 6:58 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Neo-Scholastic - November 26, 2014 at 8:03 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Angrboda - November 26, 2014 at 8:41 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Neo-Scholastic - November 26, 2014 at 8:49 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Esquilax - November 26, 2014 at 9:55 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Mudhammam - November 27, 2014 at 1:04 am
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by abaris - November 26, 2014 at 6:18 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Jenny A - November 26, 2014 at 6:54 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by The Grand Nudger - November 26, 2014 at 8:07 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Minimalist - November 26, 2014 at 8:20 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Surgenator - November 26, 2014 at 11:05 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by JuliaL - November 26, 2014 at 11:25 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Minimalist - November 26, 2014 at 11:43 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Alex K - November 27, 2014 at 5:33 am
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Brian37 - November 27, 2014 at 6:56 am
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Neo-Scholastic - November 28, 2014 at 11:24 am
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by FifthElement - November 28, 2014 at 11:29 am
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Neo-Scholastic - November 28, 2014 at 11:42 am
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by FifthElement - November 29, 2014 at 1:17 am
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Esquilax - November 28, 2014 at 2:08 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Neo-Scholastic - November 28, 2014 at 2:59 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Esquilax - November 28, 2014 at 3:46 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Mudhammam - November 29, 2014 at 2:44 am
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by The Grand Nudger - November 28, 2014 at 11:26 am
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by The Grand Nudger - November 28, 2014 at 12:55 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Neo-Scholastic - November 28, 2014 at 1:08 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by The Grand Nudger - November 28, 2014 at 1:15 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by The Grand Nudger - November 28, 2014 at 3:04 pm
RE: Aquinas's Fifth Way - by Angrboda - November 28, 2014 at 5:29 pm

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