"But what about the moderates?"

[dyresand]

...
I probably need to make a similar resolution.

Evolution/death/Adam is an interesting issue. This really needs further thought for a proper answer. Clearly death has always been around. Off the top of my head, for Adam read humanity. Paul saw humanity being 'in Adam', hence dying, as one of the three problems mentioned, to which Jesus was the solution. Death clearly still goes on, but for the Xian, isn't more than a change of state. I, humanity, Adam, exist in a fallen world, in which death comes as standard. In the future, there will be no death, so I guess no evolution.

The NT order would more normally be considered- genuine Paul (50s), synoptic gospels (70+), then others coming somewhere in second part of C1. Revelation is end of C1.

The role of Israel is a vitally important point, and I'm going to try to focus only on this in the next post. We agree that in C1 Israel, there was very much an expectation that God would intervene to establish His kingdom.

However a bunch of Jews came to the conclusion that the covenant with Israel had been misread. That the problem went deeper than Israel getting free of the pagans. Israel's role had always been to free humanity, which would launch the creator's new world and new humanity in advance of 'the end'.

For example, although there had been that strange piece about the suffering servant, no-one had quite appreciated that this was the means that the Messiah was to accomplish Israel's task. When they reread the passages, it becomes obvious. The meaning of “In you shall all the nations of the world be blessed” promise to Abraham also became clear. This was read alongside passages about God becoming King, and the nations of the world subsequently rejoicing (Ps 96), and a whole set of other passages we can discuss if you like, and the penny dropped as to what had gone on.

God had done what He said he would do, and had sorted out the three problems. It had always been there in the OT, but what it meant when it happened hadn't been appreciated. There had always been a discussion about what it would look like when God returned to establish His kingdom. Now they knew.


I popped into the forum originally to engage with a Xmas issue, and was really surprised to find none. The Jewish meta-narrative above is far too interesting, so annoyingly I'm going to have to leave the Quirinius thing after:
a) Quirinius could have had two stints. Historians of the future may not believe Mourinho was at Real Madrid given his Chelsea employment times.
b) There's certainly plenty of room for alternative reconstructions. One of which may actually be true.
c) Given my line on historicity, 'whatever' is my thinking on this.
d) Most importantly- have another peek at my 'Missing Luke's point' thing.

And I know my resolution for 2015. Same as 2014.

if you think about it you need to sin otherwise jesus death would be for nothing. as the years go by peoples morality gets better making jesus death in first world countries for nothing. in third world countries if this is all true they need it more than first world countries. jesus death eventually would be for nothing as well the world is becoming more secular and a place of less crime.