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Determinism, Free Will and Paradox
#9
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox
(January 17, 2015 at 12:20 pm)bennyboy Wrote:
(January 17, 2015 at 12:01 pm)Alex K Wrote: Concerning your third paragraph: yes, from a maths point of view I'd say the whole history of the universe would be equivalent to the initial conditions plus the fundamental laws of physics. Deep philosophical question: does time even exist in this case? Smile
Saying that subsequent conditions are a product of initial conditions and the laws of physics seems to imply that time does exist. But I think the directionality is less clear-- given that all states, from beginning to end, are set in stone, then why wouldn't we argue that the initial conditions are a product OF subsequent events?
Ohh, my favourite topic, about which I can go on for days. No, directionality in this case is not clear at all! The laws of classical (non quantum) physics are identical under time reversal. If you look at a simulation of several mass points attracting each other, there is no way to tell whether you are watching it forward or backwards, save for one thing: if you're watching it forward, one tends to, statistically, observe less likely configurations to go towards more likely ones. If one has many many particles, this becomes the second law of thermodynamics. If, on the other extreme, you have just two particles, there is no notion of direction of time in principle.

In ypur deterministic pet universe, one could identify regions in time evolution where one can use entropy to assign a direction, and this would coincide with our subjective notion of an arrow of time. Towards heat death, this becomes less and less pronounced.
Quote:
Quote:In any case, there currently aren't good reasons to think the universe is deterministic, so this discussion is interesting mainly as a thought experiment.
I've often agreed with you on this. However, how would one collect evidence on either side of this question?

Quantum measurements look perfectly random, and if there are hidden variables which guide this observed randomness in a deterministic way, we do not have evidence for them. This to me is evidence against determinism - we can discuss how strong. If there is a many worlds multiverse, it is deterministic as a whole, but the subjective path through it for any observer is truly random if the observer we follow is chosen randomly.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

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Messages In This Thread
Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 17, 2015 at 11:54 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 17, 2015 at 12:01 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 17, 2015 at 12:20 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 17, 2015 at 1:23 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Aoi Magi - January 17, 2015 at 12:37 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by helyott - January 17, 2015 at 12:45 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2015 at 12:57 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 17, 2015 at 1:15 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2015 at 1:17 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2015 at 1:35 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 17, 2015 at 2:40 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Whateverist - January 17, 2015 at 2:02 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2015 at 3:33 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 17, 2015 at 5:48 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 17, 2015 at 3:51 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 17, 2015 at 4:18 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 17, 2015 at 8:36 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 17, 2015 at 8:45 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 17, 2015 at 8:50 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 18, 2015 at 9:03 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 18, 2015 at 10:26 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 18, 2015 at 11:05 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2015 at 8:51 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Roxy904 - January 17, 2015 at 8:53 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 17, 2015 at 9:03 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 17, 2015 at 9:19 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 1:54 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 18, 2015 at 3:15 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 3:40 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 18, 2015 at 10:29 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 18, 2015 at 10:36 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 5:34 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 18, 2015 at 8:23 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 8:39 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 18, 2015 at 9:33 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 18, 2015 at 11:04 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 18, 2015 at 11:17 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 19, 2015 at 12:16 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 19, 2015 at 9:25 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 19, 2015 at 10:50 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 19, 2015 at 12:49 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 19, 2015 at 2:32 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 19, 2015 at 10:59 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 18, 2015 at 4:07 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 4:18 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 18, 2015 at 5:33 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 5:43 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Exian - January 18, 2015 at 6:42 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 18, 2015 at 10:34 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 18, 2015 at 7:35 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 8:38 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2015 at 8:44 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 8:59 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 18, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2015 at 9:00 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2015 at 9:14 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 18, 2015 at 9:20 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2015 at 9:38 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 18, 2015 at 9:46 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2015 at 10:02 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 18, 2015 at 10:06 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2015 at 10:09 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 18, 2015 at 10:18 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 18, 2015 at 10:24 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 10:26 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 18, 2015 at 10:36 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2015 at 10:39 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 18, 2015 at 10:51 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 19, 2015 at 10:55 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 19, 2015 at 10:58 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 19, 2015 at 12:24 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Marsellus Wallace - January 18, 2015 at 11:36 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2015 at 8:49 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 18, 2015 at 9:21 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by robvalue - January 19, 2015 at 3:46 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by psychoslice - January 19, 2015 at 3:50 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 19, 2015 at 9:59 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 19, 2015 at 11:07 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 19, 2015 at 12:33 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 19, 2015 at 12:53 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 19, 2015 at 1:01 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 19, 2015 at 1:04 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 19, 2015 at 1:25 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 19, 2015 at 7:36 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 20, 2015 at 1:08 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 20, 2015 at 10:03 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 20, 2015 at 3:19 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 20, 2015 at 7:19 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 20, 2015 at 7:55 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 20, 2015 at 8:40 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 20, 2015 at 10:32 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 20, 2015 at 10:45 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 20, 2015 at 10:50 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 20, 2015 at 11:38 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 20, 2015 at 11:46 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 20, 2015 at 3:26 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 20, 2015 at 10:38 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 20, 2015 at 8:29 pm

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