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Determinism, Free Will and Paradox
#26
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox
(January 18, 2015 at 1:54 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Benny, you also basically state, if I understand you right, that "things couldn't have been any other way since the initial determinants were set in place," say, at "the beginning of time." That sounds profound, and no doubt it is, but all you seem to really mean is that there is one future, just like there is one present, and currently you are in it... Just like you can only be doing some one thing, as it happened yesterday or whenever you decided to type out that post. And whatever you're doing now is traceable to instances in between those two points in time in such a way that we can intelligently rule out any "free," or rather spontaneous---as in uncaused---breaks in that chain of infinitely complex changes.
A caveat: I've never argued that the universe is deterministic. This thread is an "if" thread.

If determinism is true, then there's actually no such thing as causality: all points along the "time" line are preset and immalleable. Well, if causality is an illusion, then whatever you choose to do is whatever you must have chosen to do.

But here comes the paradox-- if causality is an illusion, then by what processes can we be said to be caused to "make" a particular choice? Let's say I'm choosing between a Mars Bar and a Snickers Bar. The determinist argument is that the flow of events from time t0, presumably the Big Bang, or from any other time previous to my choice, tn, inevitably arrives at whatever choice I make-- let's say the Snickers Bar. But in a single timeline, this "cause" is no such thing-- the future has already been set, and so those influences which seem causal can equally be seen as filling in a causal vacuum-- the causes HAD to happen, because future event t(n+. . . ) is already a reality.

It is only due to how we experience time that we say state tn causes state t(n+1). However, in an immalleable timeline, which determinism necessitates, all events, things and points are related in an unchanging way. So time itself is the illusion-- it is not in fact a framework in which change happens, but rather a sentient being's flowing perspective through in immalleable reality.

Okay so why then free will? Because determinism breaks temporal causality. There cannot be anything which causes me to act in a particular manner-- and yet I act. That act, free of causality, is therefore free.
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Messages In This Thread
Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 17, 2015 at 11:54 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 17, 2015 at 12:01 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 17, 2015 at 12:20 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 17, 2015 at 1:23 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Aoi Magi - January 17, 2015 at 12:37 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by helyott - January 17, 2015 at 12:45 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2015 at 12:57 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 17, 2015 at 1:15 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2015 at 1:17 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2015 at 1:35 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 17, 2015 at 2:40 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Whateverist - January 17, 2015 at 2:02 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2015 at 3:33 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 17, 2015 at 5:48 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 17, 2015 at 3:51 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 17, 2015 at 4:18 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 17, 2015 at 8:36 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 17, 2015 at 8:45 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 17, 2015 at 8:50 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 18, 2015 at 9:03 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 18, 2015 at 10:26 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 18, 2015 at 11:05 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 17, 2015 at 8:51 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Roxy904 - January 17, 2015 at 8:53 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 17, 2015 at 9:03 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 17, 2015 at 9:19 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 1:54 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 18, 2015 at 3:15 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 3:40 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 18, 2015 at 10:29 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 18, 2015 at 10:36 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 5:34 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 18, 2015 at 8:23 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 8:39 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 18, 2015 at 9:33 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 18, 2015 at 11:04 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 18, 2015 at 11:17 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 19, 2015 at 12:16 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 19, 2015 at 9:25 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 19, 2015 at 10:50 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 19, 2015 at 12:49 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 19, 2015 at 2:32 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 19, 2015 at 10:59 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 18, 2015 at 4:07 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 4:18 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 18, 2015 at 5:33 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 5:43 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Exian - January 18, 2015 at 6:42 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 18, 2015 at 10:34 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 18, 2015 at 7:35 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 8:38 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2015 at 8:44 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 8:59 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 18, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2015 at 9:00 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2015 at 9:14 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 18, 2015 at 9:20 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2015 at 9:38 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 18, 2015 at 9:46 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2015 at 10:02 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 18, 2015 at 10:06 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2015 at 10:09 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 18, 2015 at 10:18 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 18, 2015 at 10:24 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 18, 2015 at 10:26 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 18, 2015 at 10:36 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2015 at 10:39 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 18, 2015 at 10:51 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 19, 2015 at 10:55 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 19, 2015 at 10:58 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 19, 2015 at 12:24 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Marsellus Wallace - January 18, 2015 at 11:36 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 18, 2015 at 8:49 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 18, 2015 at 9:21 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by robvalue - January 19, 2015 at 3:46 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by psychoslice - January 19, 2015 at 3:50 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 19, 2015 at 9:59 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 19, 2015 at 11:07 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 19, 2015 at 12:33 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 19, 2015 at 12:53 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 19, 2015 at 1:01 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 19, 2015 at 1:04 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 19, 2015 at 1:25 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 19, 2015 at 7:36 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 20, 2015 at 1:08 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 20, 2015 at 10:03 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 20, 2015 at 3:19 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 20, 2015 at 7:19 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Mudhammam - January 20, 2015 at 7:55 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 20, 2015 at 8:40 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 20, 2015 at 10:32 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 20, 2015 at 10:45 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 20, 2015 at 10:50 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by bennyboy - January 20, 2015 at 11:38 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Alex K - January 20, 2015 at 11:46 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 20, 2015 at 3:26 pm
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by Davka - January 20, 2015 at 10:38 am
RE: Determinism, Free Will and Paradox - by The Grand Nudger - January 20, 2015 at 8:29 pm

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