RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 24, 2015 at 11:12 am
(This post was last modified: February 24, 2015 at 11:15 am by Ignorant.)
I am still trying to figure out why you feel it necessary to "figure out" what I believe when you could have just asked me (rather than continually guess and say, "it seems like you beleve such and such"). All you have to do is ask me what I believe and I will tell you. All I ask is that you don't try to tell me what I believe. I am a human being, not a lab animal.
I agree with most of the essence of what you said, and I disagree that the manner in which it was said is relevant or helpful in a thread with the given topic. I didn't come to atheistforums.org philosophy section to discuss biblical literary criticism, and I don't have any burning desire to do so either. You clearly do have that desire. I am afraid I am not the man you are looking for to discuss it.
Am I pretentious? Probably. If I am, it isn't exactly a switch a person just flips on or off, I will have to work on it, and again, I hope you will be patient and understanding of my shortcomings. As for interlocutor, I read it in someone else's post on this forum and decided that I had to use it at the earliest possible opportunity. I never claimed to be a likable person.
As for the scholar question... this is the sort of thing that frustrates me (hopefully by telling you you will understand me a bit more). You made a sweeping claim about the conclusions of all biblical scholars. I asked you to support that claim. Is this your response? It is fine if you don't want to answer, but don't disguise that by demanding that I produce a source in order to prove the negative. What sort of discussion would that be?
As for claim #1, it is different than what you originally said. Originally, you said that "the biblical authors were myth-makers". Now, you have restated it to say "1) the Jews wrote myths, even borrowing from other cultures." Every scholar will admit that. No serious scholar, however, will claim that "the biblical authors were myth-makers". Any rational person can see that some biblical texts do not contain mythical language at all. Your restatement indicates that you recognize the difference between the two formulations as well as the scholarly inadequacy of the first formulation. Thank you for that recognition. Would you at least admit that no biblical scholar would ever suggest that "the biblical authors were myth-makers" in such an unqualified way as that? At least give me that much.
Many texts of the bible contain mythical aspects, many of which were borrowed by neighboring cultures. Simplistically and unequivocally stating that all of the biblical authors were myth-makers is just not supported by the data.
Finally, so what? The fact is that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all make the claim that their god revealed himself as an eternal thing. Do you dispute that people actually claim that as a teaching of their religion?
Arguments from contingency (which employs the idea "out of nothing, nothing comes") and their successive arguments claim that some thing(s) have always existed. Do you dispute the fact that these arguments think they prove that?
The idea that some thing(s) have always existed is similar if not identical to the idea of eternity. Do you dispute that relation of terms?
The eternity claimed by the philosophical arguments is the same idea as the eternity claimed by the religious teaching. Do you dispute that?
I agree with most of the essence of what you said, and I disagree that the manner in which it was said is relevant or helpful in a thread with the given topic. I didn't come to atheistforums.org philosophy section to discuss biblical literary criticism, and I don't have any burning desire to do so either. You clearly do have that desire. I am afraid I am not the man you are looking for to discuss it.
Am I pretentious? Probably. If I am, it isn't exactly a switch a person just flips on or off, I will have to work on it, and again, I hope you will be patient and understanding of my shortcomings. As for interlocutor, I read it in someone else's post on this forum and decided that I had to use it at the earliest possible opportunity. I never claimed to be a likable person.
As for the scholar question... this is the sort of thing that frustrates me (hopefully by telling you you will understand me a bit more). You made a sweeping claim about the conclusions of all biblical scholars. I asked you to support that claim. Is this your response? It is fine if you don't want to answer, but don't disguise that by demanding that I produce a source in order to prove the negative. What sort of discussion would that be?
As for claim #1, it is different than what you originally said. Originally, you said that "the biblical authors were myth-makers". Now, you have restated it to say "1) the Jews wrote myths, even borrowing from other cultures." Every scholar will admit that. No serious scholar, however, will claim that "the biblical authors were myth-makers". Any rational person can see that some biblical texts do not contain mythical language at all. Your restatement indicates that you recognize the difference between the two formulations as well as the scholarly inadequacy of the first formulation. Thank you for that recognition. Would you at least admit that no biblical scholar would ever suggest that "the biblical authors were myth-makers" in such an unqualified way as that? At least give me that much.
Many texts of the bible contain mythical aspects, many of which were borrowed by neighboring cultures. Simplistically and unequivocally stating that all of the biblical authors were myth-makers is just not supported by the data.
Finally, so what? The fact is that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all make the claim that their god revealed himself as an eternal thing. Do you dispute that people actually claim that as a teaching of their religion?
Arguments from contingency (which employs the idea "out of nothing, nothing comes") and their successive arguments claim that some thing(s) have always existed. Do you dispute the fact that these arguments think they prove that?
The idea that some thing(s) have always existed is similar if not identical to the idea of eternity. Do you dispute that relation of terms?
The eternity claimed by the philosophical arguments is the same idea as the eternity claimed by the religious teaching. Do you dispute that?
