Why I'm Still a Christian

[Jenny A]

Okay, in your mind, humans are the only spiritual beings. What do you mean by spiritual? I think ritual, meditation, inner reflection, wonder, awe. You appear to think a sense of morality, i.e. knowing right from wrong.

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In either case I think you are wrong about people being set apart from nature. Primates and other animals that interact socially do seem to have some sense of right and wrong, mercy, and justice. It's not as developed as ours, but the beginnings are there.

The same can be said of ritual. Anyone with a dog knows dogs love rituals.

Inner reflection is harder to assess but I'd guess that brighter animals may have the beginnings of that too.

It's evolution all over again.[/align]

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No. None of that stuff is what I mean by man being a spiritual being. It's not in how we behave, like rituals or whatever, but in our essence. There is a part of our being, which we refer to as our soul, which is made in the image and likeness of God, which no other earthly creature possesses. You are familiar with christian doctrine and should already be aware of this Jenny - the flesh and the spirit.

I'm aware of the doctrine. I just don't see any evidence of the "essence" of which you speak, at least not if it's not possessed by all sentient life to some degree. And to the extent it exists at all, it resides in the flesh in the sense that a computer program resides in a computer. Apart from our very fleshy brain, there is no such thing.

And really other than how we behave, how would we know there was such a thing as this essence? An inner voice or feeling? Because the Bible speaks of one?

I heard the peal of thunder and was blinded by a flash of light, and then a voice from heaven revealed it to me. It happens to me all the time. Actually, I was thinking it over in the light of my new found acceptance of evolution and the idea came to me. In the light of scripture it seems pretty reasonable to me.

Okay, so I deserved that.

But really, my point is that it's just an idea you've added on to the Bible in order to deal with a real problem, i.e. evolution.

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It just amazes me that you guys can look around the world and say that sin does not exist.

Sin and bad behavior are not the same thing. Sin is a religious construct. If you sin, you violate a god or gods, or something holy. Without god there is no sin.

Look around you and tell me we're all basically good.

Actually, most people appear to be basically good. Most people steal, lie for advantage, rape, murder, or even cheat others in business deals much. And when we do, our consciences often pummel us a little.

Do I think all of humanity is basically good? No. But civilization wouldn't work at all without a certain amount of good behavior and trust, and here it is still trundling along, not perfect but mostly working.

We're not punished for being born, we're punished for our actions. Are you saying that if we murder someone, we're not sinning? I don't think you are contending that nobody does anything immoral, but that our actions don't incur any debt to a god.

Exactly. But I'd go further. Few if any people do the kind of immoral actions that should result in the kind of punishment meted out by your god. Such punishment is so disproportionate that our Supreme Court would declare it cruel and unusual were it to be meted out by a human court. It would be a violation of international law.

Of course, if you don't believe in God, then you're not going to accept the concept of sin.

Bingo, we have a winner.

You're idea of being good just to be good is a Godly concept, and is actually why we should lead moral lives. The problem is that we are born with a propensity to do bad things, which is demonstrated in the world, not only in the present time, but all through history.

The more interesting question is why we ever do good things against our own self interest, because with or without god, we do do that.

Is there anybody you know who has never done anything immoral? Have you made atonement to everyone you have wronged? If not, why do you not feel any guilt. If you feel no guilt over these things, then what is your mechanism for not repeating these actions?

Guilt and moral behavior are a product of evolution and teaching. Parents who don't provide for their young, don't succeed in the next generation. People who behave badly are punished by society. Societies that don't do that don't last long. ---- I don't think about it this way in terms of my own moral behavior, but it is what I do. I feel guilt when I behave badly and good, when I behave well.

If I saw a situation in which non-theists were all living in love, peace and harmony your argument would be much more convincing to me, but I've never seen that yet.

Never seen a group of religious people doing this either. Your point?