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March 23, 2015 at 5:35 pm (This post was last modified: March 23, 2015 at 5:40 pm by RobertE.)
(March 23, 2015 at 4:51 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:
(March 20, 2015 at 5:24 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Mohammed married a 9-year-old. That pretty much makes him a pedophile, all special pleading aside ... no matter his motivation.
That's what the Sunnis believe (that Asha was nine when her marriage to Mohamed was consummated). The Shia disagree. Why do you think the Sunnis are right?
(March 22, 2015 at 11:14 am)AtlasS2 Wrote: You said it yourself ; that she was a Sunni. Thus you can't generalize on all Muslims.
I'm quoting Lot & what he said to the people of Soddom :
So my pov (the same as Lot) is injected from the fact, that if homosexuality was to spread so widely in a society, forming like 99% of the population, then we look at a dead society.
Homosexuality doesn't seem to be the sort of thing that 'spreads'. It's consistently a small percentae of the population, even in cultures that are accepting of it. Your hyptothetical carries zero weight, but does serve as an example of the prediction that 'it's not natural' is a typical argument.
(March 22, 2015 at 11:14 am)AtlasS2 Wrote: But, as God says loud & clear ; that there shall be "no compulsion in religion", then again, it's a matter of personal choice ; if a person wants to be gay, nobody should stop him/her. Don't they have a god ? who appointed me as a judge ??
People aren't gay because they want to be gay. People aren't straight because they want to be straight. We are all what we are. I couldn't be attracted to men if I wanted to be. If I could, I would reckon that I am bisexual.
(March 22, 2015 at 11:14 am)AtlasS2 Wrote: The problem is with humans who want to force their thoughts & opinions on others, I personally have no problem with gays, aside from the above : that their act is destructive to the natural mating process & to the natural process of producing babies.
Can you give an example of a homosexual act preventing other people from having babies? If it's no skin off anyone else's nose, how is it destructive? And, newsflash: gay people can have children if they want, without resorting to technology. They are not incapable of breeding, provided they are willing to make an exception to their general rule of only having sex with persons of the same sex as themselves. Until the last century, gay people having children was the rule, not the exception.
(March 22, 2015 at 11:14 am)AtlasS2 Wrote: And I personally think, that adultery is also destructive, since it puts a high threat on the girl getting pregnant without a contract from the male ; insuring that he would never run & he would take care of the baby forever (along with the baby's mother).
You're on firmer ground here, but more because of he betrayal of trust involved in my opinion. Still, not something over which to get stoned to death.
(March 22, 2015 at 11:14 am)AtlasS2 Wrote: Mmmm the problem is people picking up on gays because they're a minority, yet neglect and ignore other destructive acts, like for example, taking interest on loans !
Lending at interest is one of the things that has made modern society possible. As all parties enter into agreement voluntarily, it is again no skin off anyone else's nose provided it does not descend into loansharking.
(March 22, 2015 at 11:14 am)AtlasS2 Wrote: Furthermore, Arab societies are just that insane & has an honor complex, which the sunni & shia faith just keeps pumping.
But to a level, of executing gays ? that's madness.
A point on which we agree.
(March 22, 2015 at 11:14 am)AtlasS2 Wrote: And just on a side note, homosexuality is very widely spread in Sunni societies, but mainly practiced underground
A hundred years ago, it was like that in the West as well.
Again Atlas2, this is no longer the case as I have already pointed out. There is a mosque for gay muslims in Paris so, perhaps that will give the others courage to come out, just like in the west when people were afraid to come out only two decades ago.
As for the west Mr Agenda, I don't think any of us are that old to even remember then, however, the point you raised still stands in that only until recently have homosexuals and lesbians been able to finally come out of their closets. We live in a liberal world at the moment, and people are slowly becoming more tolerant towards others i.e. sexual preference, disabilities etc. All we need now is for Islam and Catholicism to become more liberal and the world would be such a better place.
(March 23, 2015 at 5:19 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I found the following on the internet and it makes me realize this another teaching of the Quran Muslim scholars heedlessly ignore, and favor hadiths over.
The term used in the above verse, 4:6 is 'balagh-un-Nikah' which means when one is baligh (mature) enough for nikah (marriage).
[Pickthal 4:6] Prove orphans till they reach the marriageable age; then, if ye find them of sound judgment, deliver over unto them their fortune; and devour it not by squandering and in haste lest they should grow up Whoso (of the guardians) is rich, let him abstain generously (from taking of the property of orphans); and whoso is poor let him take thereof in reason (for his guardianship). And when ye deliver up their fortune unto orphans, have (the transaction) witnessed in their presence. Allah sufficeth as a Reckoner.
[Yusufali 4:6] Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is Allah in taking account.
So it seems obvious that there is an 'age of marriage' and that one is not free to marry at any age, specially during infancy or early childhood. Or at least so it seems, because I know the scholars have different opinion.
Though, one can question what the age of marriage is, I think if we relate the other similar verses to this one, we can get an idea:
وَلَا تَقْرَبُوا مَالَ الْيَتِيمِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ حَتَّىٰ يَبْلُغَ أَشُدَّهُ ۚ وَأَوْفُوا بِالْعَهْدِ ۖ إِنَّ الْعَهْدَ كَانَ مَسْئُولًا
[Shakir 17:34] And draw not near to the property of the orphan except in a goodly way till he attains his maturity and fulfill the promise; surely (every) promise shall be questioned about.
[Pickthal 17:34] Come not near the wealth of the orphan save with that which is better till he come to strength; and keep the covenant. Lo! of the covenant it will be asked.
[Yusufali 17:34] Come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength; and fulfil (every) engagement, for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).
وَلَا تَقْرَبُوا مَالَ الْيَتِيمِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ حَتَّىٰ يَبْلُغَ أَشُدَّهُ ۖ
[Shakir 6:152] And do not approach the property of the orphan except in the best manner until he attains his maturity, and give full measure and weight with justice--
[Yusufali 6:152] And come not nigh to the orphan's property, except to improve it, until he attain the age of full strength; give measure and weight with (full) justice;
Since all three verses are about the same thing, and the terms 'balagh-un-nikah' and 'balagha-ashuddahu' are used to indicate the same time period, which means that the age of marriage = age of maturity/strength. Therefore, I think there is a certain age of marriage in Islam and it is when you're physically ready for marriage. And this applies to both men and women since the orphans discussed in above verses include both.
As we can see, per Quran:
The age of marriage, is the age of maturity/full strength. The word is ashudahu which means at the age of most strength, which suggests it's not even just puberty but when a person reaches their prime in strength.
Could you define "prime in strength", since this would suggest to me that it is an adult.
