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JW looking clarity followup
RE: JW looking clarity followup
(April 25, 2015 at 11:18 pm)Aractus Wrote: The problem with the explanation that "their clothes didn't wear out" is twofold - consider the fact that the Bible records their deaths and burials, and the fact that they had many other belongings after plundering the Egyptians. And secondly consider the fact that some of the events recorded in the New Testament are corroborated with the archaeological record.

Yes Paul is a legitimate person, absolutely, however he didn't write the book of Revelation. The two authors could have two different points of view. But I would argue that Paul did see Jesus as deity, for instance by his claim in Galatians 2 that Christ lives in him.

Gal 2:19-20: For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

The Nicene Creed is trinitarian. The reason why most Christians reject JW's as being Christian is because they believe the Nicene Creed unites all Christians (Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant).

The earliest known Christian creed is in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 (which Paul says was taught to him), and it doesn't mention the trinity. However, it should be noted that it is a very short statement of belief compared to later creeds, and that much of what the Christian church believes can be attained from the church records from the 2nd-4th centuries.

You also have to contend with the fact that they decided in Acts 15 (first council of Jerusalem) that the Law of Moses was to be abolished in favour of following the teachings of Jesus. As the law of Moses was handed directly from God to Moses this shows that they are equating Jesus's authority with Jehovah's authority. To say they didn't believe that Jesus was deity is to claim they are allowing a mortal man to replace a law given by a deity and that explanation doesn't make any sense.

So even though I am skeptical of all that I believe at the moment I do have some thoughts on your points. And I think it should be noted that these thoughts/arguments presuppose that god inspired the bible. So it wouldn't make a difference what man wrote Galatians or Revelation. But again, they're what I have had engrained since I was a boy so I feel its worth being convinced they're not true. That being said...

1. The guy who called for the counsel, Constatine, was a lifelong pagan. He didn't even get baptized until his deathbed. Many of the reasons why we have pagan beliefs molded into christian customs is because of Constatines efforts to join the two so that they can be in harmony. Including a triune god among other things. I remember learning all of this from my french teacher and him saying, "so christmas isn't actually a christian belief but its fun right?"

2. Yes the law was abolished, but by Jesus Sacrifice. This foretold by Daniel in the 70 weeks prophecy. John 3:16 says that god loved the world so much that he gave is only begotten son for it. Paul also tells about how it served as a tudor, or protector, to Jesus. Peter had a vision of the disgusting things being eaten because god had lifted the mosaic law. This led to the first gentile, Cornelius, to be baptized.

3. The counsel of Nicea was a measure to try and unite what Christians believe, yet there are thousands of Christian denominations that have differing views. Yes, some are considered "christian." So am I going to let them tell me what makes me a "real" christian? Personally no. Especially when it seems like they're doctrines don't jive with scripture. 

4. Jesus wasn't just a mortal man to them. They believed that he had been killed and then raised up. Obviously he wasn't just a dude to them

Conclusion: If there is not a divine inspiration to the bible then some of those points are bunk. But you're playing both sides. You're saying how you don't believe in the divinity of the scriptures but making assertions of what a true christian should believe. Or maybe your not, but thats how I'm taking it. I am guessing that as an ex-angelican minister you have deep seeded beliefs, much as I do. Even if you don't actually believe them, they're still there
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Messages In This Thread
JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 17, 2015 at 10:21 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Quatermass - April 17, 2015 at 10:36 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by henryp - April 17, 2015 at 11:37 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by robvalue - April 17, 2015 at 11:38 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Surgenator - April 17, 2015 at 11:44 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 17, 2015 at 6:36 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Simon Moon - April 17, 2015 at 6:58 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 17, 2015 at 7:05 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Faith No More - April 17, 2015 at 11:49 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Fidel_Castronaut - April 17, 2015 at 11:52 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Tonus - April 17, 2015 at 12:00 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by robvalue - April 17, 2015 at 12:03 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Simon Moon - April 17, 2015 at 12:13 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Minimalist - April 17, 2015 at 12:16 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Alex K - April 17, 2015 at 12:59 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Faith No More - April 17, 2015 at 2:35 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Thumpalumpacus - April 17, 2015 at 1:03 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by robvalue - April 17, 2015 at 1:05 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Ravenshire - April 17, 2015 at 1:21 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by watchamadoodle - April 17, 2015 at 1:43 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by MysticKnight - April 17, 2015 at 1:58 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Minimalist - April 17, 2015 at 2:28 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Exian - April 17, 2015 at 2:32 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Goon - April 17, 2015 at 2:01 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Mudhammam - April 17, 2015 at 2:04 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by rexbeccarox - April 17, 2015 at 2:22 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Surgenator - April 17, 2015 at 5:44 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Alex K - April 17, 2015 at 3:53 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Faith No More - April 17, 2015 at 4:42 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Mudhammam - April 17, 2015 at 4:48 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Faith No More - April 17, 2015 at 6:41 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 17, 2015 at 6:56 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Simon Moon - April 17, 2015 at 7:18 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by rexbeccarox - April 17, 2015 at 7:18 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 17, 2015 at 7:50 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by KevinM1 - April 17, 2015 at 9:08 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 18, 2015 at 12:12 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by KevinM1 - April 18, 2015 at 1:07 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Ravenshire - April 18, 2015 at 3:15 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by KevinM1 - April 18, 2015 at 3:17 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by downbeatplumb - April 18, 2015 at 3:50 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Tonus - April 18, 2015 at 7:27 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 18, 2015 at 6:13 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Esquilax - April 18, 2015 at 11:25 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Aractus - April 19, 2015 at 3:36 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 19, 2015 at 10:46 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Aractus - April 20, 2015 at 12:26 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Tonus - April 20, 2015 at 8:53 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Alex K - April 17, 2015 at 7:04 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Alex K - April 17, 2015 at 7:08 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 17, 2015 at 7:12 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Cyberman - April 17, 2015 at 7:13 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by abaris - April 17, 2015 at 7:27 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Cyberman - April 17, 2015 at 8:35 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Mudhammam - April 18, 2015 at 1:11 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Aractus - April 18, 2015 at 3:30 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by robvalue - April 18, 2015 at 3:35 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by robvalue - April 18, 2015 at 4:00 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by TubbyTubby - April 18, 2015 at 5:17 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Esquilax - April 18, 2015 at 2:34 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by robvalue - April 18, 2015 at 2:57 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Cyberman - April 18, 2015 at 7:18 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by rexbeccarox - April 18, 2015 at 3:03 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by robvalue - April 18, 2015 at 3:05 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by rexbeccarox - April 18, 2015 at 3:08 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by robvalue - April 18, 2015 at 3:10 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by rexbeccarox - April 18, 2015 at 3:11 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Ravenshire - April 18, 2015 at 3:21 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Minimalist - April 18, 2015 at 3:13 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by robvalue - April 18, 2015 at 3:16 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by downbeatplumb - April 19, 2015 at 3:44 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by rexbeccarox - April 18, 2015 at 3:23 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by LastPoet - April 18, 2015 at 6:29 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Tonus - April 18, 2015 at 9:57 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 18, 2015 at 10:53 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by robvalue - April 19, 2015 at 3:45 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Aractus - April 19, 2015 at 3:58 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by KevinM1 - April 24, 2015 at 2:09 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Tonus - April 19, 2015 at 6:44 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by pocaracas - April 19, 2015 at 11:17 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by robvalue - April 19, 2015 at 12:04 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Brakeman - April 19, 2015 at 12:07 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 20, 2015 at 11:29 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Aractus - April 20, 2015 at 9:49 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by robvalue - April 19, 2015 at 12:10 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by robvalue - April 20, 2015 at 9:31 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 23, 2015 at 11:11 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by rexbeccarox - April 23, 2015 at 11:30 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 24, 2015 at 7:23 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by rexbeccarox - April 25, 2015 at 1:39 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Aractus - April 24, 2015 at 5:54 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 24, 2015 at 11:52 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Aractus - April 25, 2015 at 11:19 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 25, 2015 at 10:42 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by bennyboy - April 20, 2015 at 9:43 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by robvalue - April 20, 2015 at 9:56 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Tonus - April 21, 2015 at 10:01 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by robvalue - April 24, 2015 at 2:39 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 25, 2015 at 1:32 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Tonus - April 24, 2015 at 9:24 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 25, 2015 at 1:49 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Bad Wolf - April 24, 2015 at 8:01 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by robvalue - April 25, 2015 at 2:25 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 25, 2015 at 11:08 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Silver - April 25, 2015 at 2:31 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Tonus - April 25, 2015 at 7:03 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Aractus - April 25, 2015 at 11:18 pm
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Won2blv - April 26, 2015 at 11:41 am
RE: JW looking clarity followup - by Aractus - April 27, 2015 at 12:43 am

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