The Historical Reliability of the New Testament

[pocaracas]

"Wow.... I didn't know we had a TimOneil around here, too!

Welcome!

Thanks.  But it's actually "O'Neill"

Ah... the double-consonant trick. Sorry I missed it.

A catholic guy was just saying on another thread you debunked the possibility that part of the canonical life of jesus was... borrowed... from the Teacher of righteous described in the Dead sea scrolls.

I'm not sure what he's referring to, but I can't say this is something that can be "debunked".  Though I would say that any parallels between Jesus and the ToR from the Scrolls are pretty vague and most likely explained by the fact they were both Jews and both sect leaders.  I can't actually think of any specific parallels between them at all and can think of many significant differences between their respective sects.  So the idea that one is derived from the other is pretty weak.

I wouldn't say one is derived... one may pick up on a few notions from the other.

In my ignorance, all I got going for the "claim of borrowing" is the wiki article on the teacher where a guy named Wise claims that the scrolls present a picture of a messiah that rattled the established religious leaders and got crucified as a result... there's also a mentioning that his followers expected that "the Teacher would return to judge the wicked and lead the righteous into a golden age, and that it would take place within the next forty years." This return never happened, obviously... but it is reminiscent of how christians are waiting for their messiah to return... at first, it would be within their lifetimes (close to the 40 years).... then it became "soon"... it's been "soon" for 2000 years, and counting.

I know of no evidence at all that the ToR was "crucified".  There is nothing in the Scrolls material that says anything about his death, let alone him being killed.  So this Wise guy is drawing a long bow.

This is the entry in the wiki about Wise's view:

the Teacher of Righteousness was the "first messiah", a figure predating Jesus by roughly 100 years.[9] This figure - who Wise believes was named Judah - rose to prominence during the reign of Alexander Jannaeus, and had been a priest and confidant to the king. However, he became dissatisfied with the religious sects in Jerusalem, and in reaction, founded a "crisis cult". While amassing a following, the Teacher (and his followers) claimed he was the fulfillment of various Biblical prophecies, with an emphasis on those found in Isaiah. The Teacher was eventually killed by the religious leadership in Jerusalem, and his followers hailed him as messianic figure who had been exalted to the presence of God's throne. They then anticipated that the Teacher would return to judge the wicked and lead the righteous into a golden age, and that it would take place within the next forty years.

It doesn't say the guy was crucified, but, at this time, that Jannaeus in there seems to have crucified a lot of people... so... something in my head may have misfired towards that.... AH, no.. this is where I came across that idea:
http://www.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/deadsea.htm

54 With the prevailing scholarship of the dating of the scrolls, the view came forth that the Teacher of Righteousness was the biblical Jesus. This caused a furor, and when Dupont-Sommer translated some scrolls, he claimed that the Teacher of Righteousness had been crucified! This needs to be looked at, as well as the concept of Messianism in the scrolls, as it perhaps is the crux of identity between the two.

The reference to crucifixion is in the Commentary of Nahum in the scrolls. G. Vermes notes that the Pharisees in Alexander Janneus’ time were crucified by Janneus for plotting against him "in collusion with the Syrian Seleucid King Demetrius Eucaerus, eight hundred Pharisees were condemned by Janneus, to die on the cross."55 The idea that the Teacher of Righteousness, who had been claimed to be a Messiah, was crucified has not died down yet. In fact, since this view came about, many scrolls have be reasssed as to their Messianic content, as well as the entire concept of Messianism in the scrolls and early Christianity, as well as Judaism.56 H. H. Rowley took exception with John Allegro’s contention that the Teacher of Righteousness was crucified, as well as that this was a unique event in Israel.57 Allegro identifies the "Lion of Wrath" with Alexander Janneus. This is speculative yet we are reminded that Janneus crucified eight hundred of his enemies, and was nicknamed Thrakidan. The link between Thrakidan and the "Lion of Wrath" is unknown.58 C. Rabin notes that the fragment speaks of hanging men alive, which seems to allude to Janneus executing 800 of his enemies by impaling or crucifying (anastaur sas) them

At least, I'm not going that crazy!

How does your scholarship on the subject analyze this possibility of borrowing of a theme?

See above.  The game of "parallels = derivation" is usually not worth playing.

yeah... like I told Carson in the other thread: Short of a time-machine, we'll likely never be sure of anything about what really happened.
But it's still fun to rattle their cages with doubts!
Things are not entirely as they (christians) claim.