RE: Will Humans Have Freewill in Heaven?
July 11, 2015 at 1:57 pm
(This post was last modified: July 11, 2015 at 1:58 pm by KevinM1.)
"God just wants a relationship with you."
"No, that's okay, I'm good."
"You're going to burn forever in hell if you refuse."
"Wait, I don't get a choice?"
"Of course you get a choice. You can choose God or not."
"But, you just said if I don't choose it I'm going to suffer for eternity."
"That's right."
"So, it's a choice... at, essentially, gun point."
"No, he just wants to share his love with you."
"...under the threat of eternal torture."
"Well, he did make you, and all of existence."
"And that justifies 'believe in me or be punished forever'?"
"Yes. God is good. This is part of his divine wisdom and justice."
"Wait. How do we know god is good?"
"It says so in the Bible."
"So? In the bible, god does a bunch of terrible things to people, often for very weak reasons."
"Who are you to question God? We're all small creatures who cannot grasp his infinite wisdom."
"How do we know its wisdom is infinite?"
"It says so in the Bible."
"And? We're just supposed to take the bible's word for it?"
"Yes."
"Why? What gives it that credibility?"
"It's the divinely inspired Word of God."
"How do you know that?"
"Because it says so in the Bible."
"..."
"Why won't you accept God's love? He just wants to love you."
"Demanding love under the threat of torture isn't love. In any other context, you'd find that notion abhorrent. And doling out the same punishment - one that is innately reprehensible - for all crimes, regardless of their severity, isn't justice."
"Yes it is. Who are you to say you know better than God?"
"Well, for one, I don't believe in the existence of something just because a book of myths tells me to."
"There's historical evidence for the events in the Bible."
"But, none of that evidence points to divinity or magic. And some of the claims in the bible, like the exodus, don't have supporting archaeological evidence to support them. And, of course, this is moving away from the subject."
"It is."
"Okay, so, god's plan was to give everyone free will to choose whether or not to believe in and love it, correct?"
"Right."
"So, if this is all according to its plan, why is god punishing people for exercising their free will?"
"Because they're choosing sin over him."
"But, that ability to choose sin was given to people by god. Why punish people for making that choice?"
"Because God can't abide sin."
"God created existence. Presumably, that means god created sin. Why can it not abide by what it created? Or is god too weak to handle sin?"
"God is stronger than sin, he just can't standing being in the presence of it."
"Sin is so powerful that it irritates god?"
"..."
"Right. Anyway, god has made a system where he punishes - for all eternity - people who exercise the free will it gave them. Because they made the wrong choice."
"Exactly. Just like here, where you have the free will to commit a crime. Being able to commit a crime doesn't absolve you from the consequences."
"Okay. But here, in the real world, the punishments for crimes ostensibly fit the crimes. We don't execute someone for shoplifting, for example. Moreover, in most cases rehabilitation is part of the process. With god and hell, every crime has one punishment - eternal torture - and there's no chance for rehabilitation or restitution. How is that fair?"
"It's fair because it's part of God's infinite wisdom and justice, and we're in no position to say otherwise."
"Argument from ignorance again?"
"It's all I have."
"No, that's okay, I'm good."
"You're going to burn forever in hell if you refuse."
"Wait, I don't get a choice?"
"Of course you get a choice. You can choose God or not."
"But, you just said if I don't choose it I'm going to suffer for eternity."
"That's right."
"So, it's a choice... at, essentially, gun point."
"No, he just wants to share his love with you."
"...under the threat of eternal torture."
"Well, he did make you, and all of existence."
"And that justifies 'believe in me or be punished forever'?"
"Yes. God is good. This is part of his divine wisdom and justice."
"Wait. How do we know god is good?"
"It says so in the Bible."
"So? In the bible, god does a bunch of terrible things to people, often for very weak reasons."
"Who are you to question God? We're all small creatures who cannot grasp his infinite wisdom."
"How do we know its wisdom is infinite?"
"It says so in the Bible."
"And? We're just supposed to take the bible's word for it?"
"Yes."
"Why? What gives it that credibility?"
"It's the divinely inspired Word of God."
"How do you know that?"
"Because it says so in the Bible."
"..."
"Why won't you accept God's love? He just wants to love you."
"Demanding love under the threat of torture isn't love. In any other context, you'd find that notion abhorrent. And doling out the same punishment - one that is innately reprehensible - for all crimes, regardless of their severity, isn't justice."
"Yes it is. Who are you to say you know better than God?"
"Well, for one, I don't believe in the existence of something just because a book of myths tells me to."
"There's historical evidence for the events in the Bible."
"But, none of that evidence points to divinity or magic. And some of the claims in the bible, like the exodus, don't have supporting archaeological evidence to support them. And, of course, this is moving away from the subject."
"It is."
"Okay, so, god's plan was to give everyone free will to choose whether or not to believe in and love it, correct?"
"Right."
"So, if this is all according to its plan, why is god punishing people for exercising their free will?"
"Because they're choosing sin over him."
"But, that ability to choose sin was given to people by god. Why punish people for making that choice?"
"Because God can't abide sin."
"God created existence. Presumably, that means god created sin. Why can it not abide by what it created? Or is god too weak to handle sin?"
"God is stronger than sin, he just can't standing being in the presence of it."
"Sin is so powerful that it irritates god?"
"..."
"Right. Anyway, god has made a system where he punishes - for all eternity - people who exercise the free will it gave them. Because they made the wrong choice."
"Exactly. Just like here, where you have the free will to commit a crime. Being able to commit a crime doesn't absolve you from the consequences."
"Okay. But here, in the real world, the punishments for crimes ostensibly fit the crimes. We don't execute someone for shoplifting, for example. Moreover, in most cases rehabilitation is part of the process. With god and hell, every crime has one punishment - eternal torture - and there's no chance for rehabilitation or restitution. How is that fair?"
"It's fair because it's part of God's infinite wisdom and justice, and we're in no position to say otherwise."
"Argument from ignorance again?"
"It's all I have."
"I was thirsty for everything, but blood wasn't my style" - Live, "Voodoo Lady"