Will Humans Have Freewill in Heaven?

[Randy Carson]

Why?
I have two choices: I can give a dollar to a homeless person (a small good) or I can sell all my possessions, give the money to the poor, and join him (a greater good)? How have I done evil by choosing to do the small good rather than the greater good?

No, Jesus spoke of us being rewarded to varying degrees, so one who does the small good will get a smaller reward...but a reward nonetheless.

You were simply wrong on this point.

Because in this life you can choose to be selfish, which is exactly what not giving up all your posessions to feed the poor is.

No, we are not called to sell all of our possessions. This is not a requirement that Jesus placed on all beleivers.

Well it's true, the likes of Benedict XVI and Cardinal Burke have been slagged off mercilessly (although fairly particularly with the later, one should see the bills...) since he pulled back out some of the pageantry that John Paul II, and more recently Francis have had the good sense to do away with.
The fact you are unwilling to engage in the greater good shows you are still tinged by avarice, and no impure thing can stand before God and behold him in the Beatific Vision, these are the actions of an individual bound for Purgatory not Paradise. Why do you think there is such a strong history of monasticism and renunciation in Catholicism and Orthodoxy? The religious are those who are willing to go the whole hog, the laity are those who don't quite believe enough to make the full sacrifice.

Wrong again. And I do grow weary of these loooooooong posts which contain error after error. Where did you say you went to school again? Damn.

Since I was a candidate at a Trappist monastery, I think I can speak a little of the monastic vocation despite the fact that it was not actually my ultimate calling. We are not ALL called to the ascetic life of the cloister, and not embracing the life of Franciscan poverty does not mean that people do not believe. If we were all monastics, there would be no future generations! If I am "tinged by avarice" this imperfection will be dealt with in purgatory but it does not disqualify me from heaven.

Well it is true, if you actually believed what the teaching was about the last being first and the first being last you would have become a hermit and possibly taken holy orders, not shacked up in an American subpurgatory. It is hypocrisy Randy, and I'm sure you know of a few Early Church writers and what Jesus himself allegedly had to say about them!

The scriptures are clear that not everyone is called to a life of celibacy. If you are ignorant of the verses, I can point them out to you.

I'm quite right, if you actually believed this why wouldn't you aim for top prize? You either don't believe or you're a hypocrite, but in any case it shows you're selfish. I'm not calling you out on that, I've no plans to sell my house and donate the profits to feed orphans anytime soon either but I don't have these delusions of grandeur attached to it.

Because as the scriptures point out, the celibacy of the monk or the holy orders of the priesthood are vocations - just as marriage is a vocation. God calls some to the former and many more to the latter. It is a mistake to try to grasp the more ascetic vocation when the grace has not been given.

How so? Everyone in heaven is there because of their love for God and their desire to do His will. There is no shotgun blackmail when we are eager to serve God.

You were simply wrong on this point.

No, you're eager to serve God because you're eager for a reward or you fear his unending wrath. That is not love Randy, that is not mutual respect and self giving, that is either greed or fear, possibly both. You're either a whore or a slave, again possibly both.

Well, if I am God's slave then I am so happily. But sure, we begin our lives as baby Christians considering the reward and gain because we do not yet know God or His love. This matures over time, and as I have said elsewhere, there are saints who have written that they would willingly go to hell for eternity if that was what their Beloved asked of them. He won't, of course, but there is that evidence of the mature Christian love that is indifferent to the suffering or reward of which you speak.

I'd be more polite in my terminology, but since you've shown no respect to me throughout I think it's time I stopped showing you any and said exactly what I thought.

I'm trembling now...

Is this the situation you feel we are currently in? That God is holding a gun to our heads and threatening us with hell if we don't do as he says?

I don't feel we are in that situation at all Randy, I don't believe in it, I feel we are in about as much threat from this malevolent deity with a shotgun as I am of being robbed by Puss in Boots or any other fairytale character you care to name. If I have any emotional response to this it would be mourning the fact that this barbaric hellish nightmare has captured the mind of so many people for so long and that people like you are throwing more wood onto the fire.

It is my greatest desire to throw so much wood onto the fire that the brightness of the blaze would finally pierce into the corners of some truly darkened minds.

Then let me ask you this: if this is the resentment you feel towards God under the current situation (with God being "silent" as some here claim), imagine how much more resentment you and others would feel if God were to make Himself more known to us AS FOLKS ARE ROUTINELY DEMANDING IN THIS FORUM.

How can I feel resentment towards something that doesn't exist Randy? I resent what people like yourself have done across history, I have no doubt in my mind you are the kind of individual who would gleefully start slaughtering the non believers should Francis ever call a ninth Crusade.

I wouldn't feel any different if the deity you described appeared or not Randy, certainly I would have to admit I was incorrect regarding its existance but my opinion of it would not change one bit. It is a tyranical elderitch nightmarish horror, and whever or not it is real or imaginary is irellevant if your description is correct.

Ah, yes. Exactly as I have written elsewhere...even citing Hitchens to the same effect.

If God appeared like a flaming behemoth in the sky, you would not acknowledge Him AS GOD because you simply don't want to. This is how and why people go to hell...BECAUSE THEY WOULD RATHER BE THERE THAN IN GOD'S PRESENCE so great is their hatred for Him. And I would also suggest that for those that feel no "hatred for God", they are driven by a great love for self. So, the end result is the same.

But I'll here from others about how no one hates God, blah, blah, blah.

FOLKS, I GET THAT YOU HAVE DIFFERING VIEWS, OKAY. NOT EVERYONE IS AT THE EXACT SAME SPOT ON THE SPECTRUM OF ATHEISM.

I'm not a coward Randy, I meant exactly what I said. If the White Witch of Narnia appeared right now I'd still think she was a cunt if she was indeed the monster  Lewis depicted her as.

Perhaps reading more of CS Lewis would help.

I love it when atheists finally reach the Christian position by use of their own reasoning and logic.

You'll have to do a lot better than that to make me agree with the Catholic position Randy. I'm open to a good argument, but you've yet to provide one.

At least not one that you recognize for its quality, apparently. I'll keep trying...Bring more wood!

Fair enough. However, when the clock runs out on this earth, you're either with God or you aren't. It was nice of God to tell us of the next chapter and to provide the means (Jesus) by which it may go well once we turn the page.

So much for this objective morality of yours. You do realize threats of eternal damnation and emotional responses such as this are actually singled out in Catholic apologetics books as a faux pas? At least my copy of Austen Ivereigh's How to Defend the Faith without Raising your Voice which I've been reading today would suggest so.

(That's also not a very good book by the way despite the many recommendations it has received from the Catholic Herald and Catholic Answers, just one long appeal to tradition and several facts within such as the divorce rate are simply not true, I've checked.)

I don't own that book, but I do have a fairly respectable library of titles. If you are going to read some Catholic theology/apologetics, I'd be happy to recommend some books.

The difference between us is this: YOU choose to focus on the stick; I tend to focus on the carrot.

It is still equally morally abhorrent, you're preforming tricks for a doggie treat, not because you actually like this individual. You are attempting to use this capricious being for your own ends.

Or both. Could I be doing it for BOTH reasons?

And you know this because of your careful study of Catholic theology in an orthodox Catholic degree program?

Randy, I actually do have certification to teach Catholic Theology, I've mentioned to you before that I teach Thomastic Theology. It is not my specialist subject, but I've been judged by your Church when I received my CCRS (Catholic Certificate in Religious Studies) no less to be suitably qualified to explain it to Catholics.

I recall you mentioned your study with the Protestants and the Orthodox, but I must have missed your mentioning this. I do apologize. And I wish I knew which diocese you are teaching in.

I may not be a Muslim, but I still know who Muhammad was. You may not be an Atheist, but you've deemed yourself amply qualified to call us all whores and degenerates in more flowery language since you've arrived here.

Do a search on the word "whores" posted by Randy Carson. Let me know what you come up with, okay?

All I found was me quoting YOU here: http://atheistforums.org/thread-33377-po...#pid970638

My search:

http://atheistforums.org/search.php?acti...order=desc