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Does a God exist?
RE: Does a God exist?
While we're at it, let's take apart the reasons.

(July 6, 2016 at 8:43 am)SteveII Wrote:
(July 5, 2016 at 9:44 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: You initially claimed that your belief in the NT miracles was different from that of other miracle stories.  You seem to be treading water here.  How are you different in your belief in the miracles of Jesus than other believers in the incredible?

1) Content of the NT is internally consistent within itself and with the OT.

Selection effect.  Those stories that fit were chosen; those that don't fit were rejected.  Also a self-fulfilling prophecy as the tales were well known, so creating tales that were consistent with pre-existing tales is hardly a difficult feat.  Regardless, consistency doesn't get you very far.  We have a tantric yoga practitioner on the forum who has all sorts of weird ideas about everything being god and reincarnation and spiritual progress.  His ideas are unusual, but they're little more than updated Tantric beliefs that have been stewing in the culture for thousands of years.  His beliefs are consistent with each other just as your book is consistent with itself.  That doesn't make it true.
 
(July 6, 2016 at 8:43 am)SteveII Wrote: 2) More historical support for more actual documents written by more than one person

As noted above, this is as much an effect of bias as it is any kind of evidence for truth.  Specifically dealing with miracle stories, it is not reasonable on the basis of historical evidence to conclude that the most improbable explanation, a miracle, is in fact the most probable.  You only get from here to there by arbitrarily assuming that the improbable was likely.  That's nothing more than assuming your conclusion, ala begging the question.  Moreover there are plenty of alternative explanations for how we arrived at the miracle stories that are consistent with the mundane processes of folklore and myth creation which we see operating to this very day.  Above you were enamored with an explanation because it was consistent; now I suspect you're not so taken by mere consistency.

(July 6, 2016 at 8:43 am)SteveII Wrote: 3) Historical support of first century church

As noted, this only supports that people believed, not that they believed rightly.  Again your standard of evidence is mismatched.  The growth of a religious movement provides scant support for the miraculous claims that make up the beliefs in that movement.  If you're trying to distance yourself from the behavior of other believers in incredible things, you are doing a very poor job.  One thing that the Carrier article does demonstrate is that the world of Jesus was rife with movements founded upon incredible beliefs.  You do not separate the behavior of the early Christians from them by talking about a historical church. The existence of an early church doesn't set your beliefs apart from those of other religious movements.

(July 6, 2016 at 8:43 am)SteveII Wrote: 4) Person of Jesus is a compelling figure

So is Krishna.  So is Siddarhtha.  So what?  This doesn't lend credence to the incredible beliefs about the miracle stories. This is another selection effect. The appealing stories about Buddha were retained. The less appealing ones were forgotten. Same with any guru. Jesus does not stand apart in this. The figure of Jesus was less reported on than that he was sculpted out of the raw material of the stories. This is the way all legends work. That a good story resulted from this process of accretion is hardly evidence that the story is true. As noted, other movements have their charismatic figures. It's looking more like sameness than difference to me.

(July 6, 2016 at 8:43 am)SteveII Wrote: 5) Observations of personal effect of Jesus in the lives of other people

This, if true, demonstrates nothing more remarkable than the power of believing.  It doesn't lend credence to the beliefs themselves.  Moreover for every anecdote about someone's life being changed by Jesus, there is sociological research that shows that believers are not so different.  Perhaps believing has some minor health benefits.  That's hardly evidence for miracles.

(July 6, 2016 at 8:43 am)SteveII Wrote: 6) Personal experience.

In another post you claimed that comparing your reasons for belief in the miracle claims to UFO believers was comparing apples to oranges.  Well this is apples to apples.  Plenty of believers in the incredible have their testimonials, from Zen Buddhists to UFO abductees.  'Personal experience' doesn't set you apart from other believers of the incredible, and that was the whole point that prompted this list.  You aren't different from them.  You only think you are.  In that you are the same.  Personal experience is sorry evidence for miracle claims.   "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool." ~ Richard Feynman
[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
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Messages In This Thread
Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 5, 2016 at 6:02 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Alex K - July 5, 2016 at 6:05 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by ignoramus - July 5, 2016 at 6:05 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by robvalue - July 5, 2016 at 6:07 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Grandizer - July 5, 2016 at 6:11 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by ignoramus - July 5, 2016 at 6:15 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by SofaKingHigh - July 5, 2016 at 6:27 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by ignoramus - July 5, 2016 at 6:40 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by SofaKingHigh - July 5, 2016 at 6:42 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Alex K - July 5, 2016 at 6:32 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by robvalue - July 5, 2016 at 6:13 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by SofaKingHigh - July 5, 2016 at 6:26 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Mr.wizard - July 5, 2016 at 6:44 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by account_inactive - July 5, 2016 at 6:47 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Mr.wizard - July 5, 2016 at 6:49 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by account_inactive - July 5, 2016 at 6:51 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Mr.wizard - July 5, 2016 at 6:54 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by account_inactive - July 5, 2016 at 7:04 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Minimalist - July 5, 2016 at 11:55 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by SofaKingHigh - July 5, 2016 at 12:01 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 5, 2016 at 6:48 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by ignoramus - July 5, 2016 at 6:52 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by ignoramus - July 5, 2016 at 6:58 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Alex K - July 5, 2016 at 7:02 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 5, 2016 at 7:10 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Excited Penguin - July 5, 2016 at 7:24 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by SofaKingHigh - July 5, 2016 at 7:32 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Excited Penguin - July 5, 2016 at 7:41 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by ignoramus - July 5, 2016 at 7:41 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Excited Penguin - July 5, 2016 at 7:51 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Expired - July 5, 2016 at 7:29 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Excited Penguin - July 5, 2016 at 7:50 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Expired - July 5, 2016 at 7:52 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by SofaKingHigh - July 5, 2016 at 11:43 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 5, 2016 at 8:26 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Expired - July 5, 2016 at 8:41 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by vorlon13 - July 5, 2016 at 12:04 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Whateverist - July 5, 2016 at 12:51 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 5, 2016 at 1:35 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 5, 2016 at 1:38 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 5, 2016 at 1:59 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 5, 2016 at 2:17 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 5, 2016 at 3:00 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 5, 2016 at 3:24 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Whateverist - July 5, 2016 at 5:35 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 5, 2016 at 2:43 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 5, 2016 at 4:15 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 5, 2016 at 4:24 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 5, 2016 at 5:06 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 5, 2016 at 8:04 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 6, 2016 at 10:54 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Angrboda - July 5, 2016 at 5:50 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 5, 2016 at 6:24 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 5, 2016 at 7:25 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 5, 2016 at 7:00 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Angrboda - July 5, 2016 at 8:12 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 5, 2016 at 9:12 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Angrboda - July 5, 2016 at 9:44 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 6, 2016 at 8:43 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Whateverist - July 6, 2016 at 9:24 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by GUBU - July 6, 2016 at 10:44 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by RoadRunner79 - July 6, 2016 at 12:00 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 6, 2016 at 12:19 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Whateverist - July 6, 2016 at 2:57 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by RoadRunner79 - July 6, 2016 at 12:13 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Angrboda - July 6, 2016 at 12:18 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 6, 2016 at 1:04 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Grandizer - July 6, 2016 at 2:16 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Angrboda - July 6, 2016 at 2:28 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 6, 2016 at 5:56 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 6, 2016 at 6:12 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 7, 2016 at 8:39 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 7, 2016 at 8:58 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 7, 2016 at 10:54 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 7, 2016 at 11:09 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 7, 2016 at 11:50 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Angrboda - July 6, 2016 at 8:06 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 6, 2016 at 8:47 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Grandizer - July 7, 2016 at 3:07 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by GUBU - July 7, 2016 at 6:28 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 7, 2016 at 8:56 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by GUBU - July 7, 2016 at 9:18 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 7, 2016 at 9:22 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by GUBU - July 7, 2016 at 9:31 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 7, 2016 at 9:33 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by GUBU - July 7, 2016 at 12:21 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by RoadRunner79 - July 7, 2016 at 9:36 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by GUBU - July 7, 2016 at 12:27 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by RoadRunner79 - July 7, 2016 at 12:59 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 7, 2016 at 10:58 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by GUBU - July 7, 2016 at 12:29 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 7, 2016 at 1:42 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Grandizer - July 7, 2016 at 2:20 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by RoadRunner79 - July 7, 2016 at 2:47 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Grandizer - July 7, 2016 at 5:32 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by RoadRunner79 - July 7, 2016 at 5:58 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 7, 2016 at 3:05 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Grandizer - July 7, 2016 at 5:39 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by GUBU - July 7, 2016 at 5:32 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Angrboda - July 6, 2016 at 3:38 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 6, 2016 at 5:26 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Grandizer - July 6, 2016 at 3:29 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by GUBU - July 6, 2016 at 9:02 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 6, 2016 at 9:49 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Whateverist - July 5, 2016 at 2:25 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Cyberman - July 5, 2016 at 5:23 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Whateverist - July 5, 2016 at 5:37 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Minimalist - July 5, 2016 at 1:36 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Ignorant - July 5, 2016 at 2:50 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 5, 2016 at 5:28 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Ignorant - July 5, 2016 at 7:46 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by GUBU - July 6, 2016 at 9:50 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Ignorant - July 6, 2016 at 2:45 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by GUBU - July 7, 2016 at 6:38 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Ignorant - July 7, 2016 at 4:13 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Angrboda - July 6, 2016 at 2:54 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Ignorant - July 6, 2016 at 3:01 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Angrboda - July 6, 2016 at 5:15 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Ignorant - July 6, 2016 at 6:10 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 6, 2016 at 6:17 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Ignorant - July 6, 2016 at 10:52 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 7, 2016 at 4:28 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Ignorant - July 7, 2016 at 4:02 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 7, 2016 at 6:15 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Ignorant - July 7, 2016 at 9:39 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 8, 2016 at 5:06 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Ignorant - July 8, 2016 at 1:20 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by robvalue - July 5, 2016 at 2:51 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 5, 2016 at 4:20 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Minimalist - July 5, 2016 at 3:25 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by brewer - July 5, 2016 at 5:07 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Angrboda - July 5, 2016 at 6:08 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Spirian - July 5, 2016 at 7:02 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 5, 2016 at 7:33 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 5, 2016 at 8:08 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 5, 2016 at 8:29 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 5, 2016 at 8:53 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 5, 2016 at 9:10 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 5, 2016 at 9:21 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 6, 2016 at 3:24 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 6, 2016 at 7:15 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 6, 2016 at 8:07 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 6, 2016 at 9:23 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Whateverist - July 6, 2016 at 9:26 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 6, 2016 at 9:28 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 6, 2016 at 10:10 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 6, 2016 at 11:21 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 6, 2016 at 12:01 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by GUBU - July 7, 2016 at 6:17 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Cyberman - July 5, 2016 at 9:43 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Minimalist - July 5, 2016 at 11:21 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Whateverist - July 6, 2016 at 9:02 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Mr.wizard - July 5, 2016 at 11:18 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by robvalue - July 6, 2016 at 1:17 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Foxaèr - July 6, 2016 at 1:20 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by robvalue - July 6, 2016 at 1:23 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by robvalue - July 6, 2016 at 3:34 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 6, 2016 at 3:53 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by robvalue - July 6, 2016 at 5:38 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Excited Penguin - July 6, 2016 at 7:19 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by ignoramus - July 6, 2016 at 8:11 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Excited Penguin - July 6, 2016 at 8:13 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Whateverist - July 6, 2016 at 9:12 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Excited Penguin - July 6, 2016 at 9:26 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Grandizer - July 6, 2016 at 9:28 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Excited Penguin - July 6, 2016 at 9:31 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Whateverist - July 6, 2016 at 9:32 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Whateverist - July 6, 2016 at 9:31 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Whateverist - July 6, 2016 at 9:30 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by GUBU - July 6, 2016 at 10:37 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Edwardo Piet - July 6, 2016 at 7:49 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by robvalue - July 6, 2016 at 8:11 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Edwardo Piet - July 6, 2016 at 8:22 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Excited Penguin - July 6, 2016 at 8:25 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Edwardo Piet - July 6, 2016 at 8:28 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Excited Penguin - July 6, 2016 at 8:35 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 6, 2016 at 8:38 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Excited Penguin - July 6, 2016 at 8:42 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Edwardo Piet - July 6, 2016 at 8:29 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 6, 2016 at 8:33 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Excited Penguin - July 6, 2016 at 9:33 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Whateverist - July 6, 2016 at 9:40 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by dyresand - July 6, 2016 at 9:57 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Excited Penguin - July 6, 2016 at 10:38 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by vorlon13 - July 6, 2016 at 11:45 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 6, 2016 at 12:12 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Cyberman - July 6, 2016 at 12:15 pm
Does a God exist? - by LadyForCamus - July 6, 2016 at 12:42 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by RoadRunner79 - July 6, 2016 at 12:45 pm
Does a God exist? - by LadyForCamus - July 6, 2016 at 12:48 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by RoadRunner79 - July 6, 2016 at 12:54 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by logicNartman - July 6, 2016 at 12:51 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Whateverist - July 6, 2016 at 2:51 pm
Does a God exist? - by LadyForCamus - July 6, 2016 at 1:01 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 6, 2016 at 1:24 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 6, 2016 at 1:58 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Grandizer - July 6, 2016 at 2:10 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by FatAndFaithless - July 6, 2016 at 2:18 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by SteveII - July 7, 2016 at 9:01 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 6, 2016 at 2:04 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by vorlon13 - July 6, 2016 at 2:07 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by robvalue - July 6, 2016 at 2:20 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by RoadRunner79 - July 6, 2016 at 2:30 pm
Does a God exist? - by LadyForCamus - July 6, 2016 at 2:29 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Veritas_Vincit - July 6, 2016 at 2:32 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 6, 2016 at 2:35 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Edwardo Piet - July 6, 2016 at 2:50 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by purplepurpose - July 6, 2016 at 4:28 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by purplepurpose - July 6, 2016 at 4:32 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by vorlon13 - July 6, 2016 at 5:16 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by LivingNumbers6.626 - July 6, 2016 at 7:58 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by The Valkyrie - July 6, 2016 at 8:01 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by GUBU - July 7, 2016 at 7:45 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by LivingNumbers6.626 - July 8, 2016 at 10:37 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by GUBU - July 9, 2016 at 7:50 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by account_inactive - July 9, 2016 at 8:57 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by LivingNumbers6.626 - July 9, 2016 at 1:19 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by robvalue - July 6, 2016 at 9:37 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by vorlon13 - July 6, 2016 at 10:59 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by robvalue - July 6, 2016 at 11:26 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by robvalue - July 7, 2016 at 6:29 am
Does a God exist? - by LadyForCamus - July 7, 2016 at 9:42 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by RoadRunner79 - July 7, 2016 at 10:42 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Edwardo Piet - July 7, 2016 at 10:56 am
Does a God exist? - by LadyForCamus - July 7, 2016 at 11:15 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by RoadRunner79 - July 7, 2016 at 11:45 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Grandizer - July 7, 2016 at 11:51 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 7, 2016 at 3:17 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Rhondazvous - July 7, 2016 at 5:30 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Minimalist - July 7, 2016 at 5:52 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by robvalue - July 8, 2016 at 2:10 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Foxaèr - July 8, 2016 at 2:12 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by GUBU - July 8, 2016 at 8:07 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by robvalue - July 8, 2016 at 5:11 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by pocaracas - July 8, 2016 at 5:28 am
RE: Does a God exist? - by Organic Machine - July 8, 2016 at 6:38 pm
RE: Does a God exist? - by Edwardo Piet - July 9, 2016 at 12:05 pm

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