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On Moral Authorities
RE: On Moral Authorities
(November 20, 2016 at 1:35 pm)robvalue Wrote: Sure. Well, I'd say there is no universal goal. You won't get everyone to agree on a goal. [1] But you could hopefully get the majority to agree on some vague principles. The way society works, this happens naturally anyway. But different societies go in different directions. The civilises West would mostly be concerned with human wellbeing. The extremist Islamic areas in the East are more concerned with what Allah wants, than human wellbeing. Clearly, since they're willing to kill people and blow themselves up to please their God.

So morality is just culture dependent, and further than that, it's different for each individual. Judging others as moral or immoral isn't helpful ultimately. Persuading them why this is the case is what matters. [2] This is why it's the reasons why you act a certain way that are important, not the act itself. [3]

1) Does disagreement mean that there is no universal goal?

2) Persuade them how? If morality is culturally dependent, then the only way to persuade a different culture or people from a different culture is to persuade them that your cultural goal is better. But better for what? Your culture?

3) What if the acts themselves poorly bring about the reasons for which we act? Can't we say those are "good/bad" acts? Hitting a nail with a feather is bad for efficient home-building. Hitting a nail with a hammer is better. The reason is the same. The acts are different. <= This is a morally neutral example to illustrate the idea.
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Messages In This Thread
On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 9, 2016 at 2:26 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Angrboda - November 9, 2016 at 3:17 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 10, 2016 at 1:02 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 9, 2016 at 3:49 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by abaris - November 9, 2016 at 5:45 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 10, 2016 at 1:04 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 9, 2016 at 4:40 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Tonus - November 9, 2016 at 5:37 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by brewer - November 9, 2016 at 5:40 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by bennyboy - November 9, 2016 at 8:02 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Neo-Scholastic - November 10, 2016 at 11:09 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Minimalist - November 9, 2016 at 5:23 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 9, 2016 at 5:44 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 10, 2016 at 1:29 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Amarok - November 9, 2016 at 6:32 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Kernel Sohcahtoa - November 9, 2016 at 7:11 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Amarok - November 10, 2016 at 1:00 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by vorlon13 - November 10, 2016 at 1:20 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 10, 2016 at 1:57 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 10, 2016 at 2:24 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Tonus - November 10, 2016 at 7:34 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 10, 2016 at 2:26 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 10, 2016 at 2:46 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Grandizer - November 10, 2016 at 2:52 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 10, 2016 at 3:12 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Grandizer - November 10, 2016 at 3:25 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 11, 2016 at 3:11 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Grandizer - November 11, 2016 at 3:28 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 10, 2016 at 4:18 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 10, 2016 at 5:38 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 10, 2016 at 4:24 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 10, 2016 at 5:32 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 10, 2016 at 6:45 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Foxaèr - November 10, 2016 at 4:41 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 10, 2016 at 4:53 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 10, 2016 at 5:28 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 10, 2016 at 6:58 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 10, 2016 at 7:11 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 10, 2016 at 9:44 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 10, 2016 at 9:57 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 10, 2016 at 11:16 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Neo-Scholastic - November 10, 2016 at 11:31 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Grandizer - November 10, 2016 at 11:32 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 10, 2016 at 11:32 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Neo-Scholastic - November 10, 2016 at 12:24 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 10, 2016 at 11:35 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 10, 2016 at 12:26 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 10, 2016 at 12:56 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 10, 2016 at 1:09 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 10, 2016 at 5:54 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 10, 2016 at 1:20 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 10, 2016 at 5:59 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 11, 2016 at 3:20 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 11, 2016 at 3:56 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Neo-Scholastic - November 11, 2016 at 12:41 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Grandizer - November 11, 2016 at 12:46 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Angrboda - November 13, 2016 at 2:27 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 13, 2016 at 7:26 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Angrboda - November 14, 2016 at 8:35 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 10, 2016 at 4:34 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 10, 2016 at 4:40 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 10, 2016 at 6:03 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 10, 2016 at 6:16 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 10, 2016 at 6:22 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 10, 2016 at 6:19 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 10, 2016 at 6:28 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 10, 2016 at 6:37 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 10, 2016 at 7:16 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 10, 2016 at 7:21 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 10, 2016 at 7:25 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 10, 2016 at 7:35 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 10, 2016 at 7:40 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 10, 2016 at 7:44 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 10, 2016 at 7:46 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 10, 2016 at 7:57 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 11, 2016 at 1:45 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 11, 2016 at 3:19 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 11, 2016 at 3:30 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Grandizer - November 11, 2016 at 3:31 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 11, 2016 at 3:34 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 11, 2016 at 3:50 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Neo-Scholastic - November 11, 2016 at 12:30 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 11, 2016 at 4:24 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 11, 2016 at 5:37 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 11, 2016 at 1:25 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 11, 2016 at 9:28 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 11, 2016 at 12:54 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 11, 2016 at 12:43 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 12, 2016 at 10:35 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 11, 2016 at 1:17 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 11, 2016 at 6:25 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Grandizer - November 11, 2016 at 7:19 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 11, 2016 at 6:30 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 11, 2016 at 6:45 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Tonus - November 11, 2016 at 8:11 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Whateverist - November 11, 2016 at 6:35 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 11, 2016 at 7:26 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 11, 2016 at 7:56 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Neo-Scholastic - November 11, 2016 at 9:56 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 11, 2016 at 10:39 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 12, 2016 at 5:29 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Tonus - November 12, 2016 at 10:05 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 12, 2016 at 8:43 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 13, 2016 at 10:18 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 13, 2016 at 10:53 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 12, 2016 at 9:06 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 12, 2016 at 10:56 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 13, 2016 at 2:10 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 13, 2016 at 1:59 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Tonus - November 13, 2016 at 10:09 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 13, 2016 at 2:06 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 13, 2016 at 2:49 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 13, 2016 at 3:51 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 13, 2016 at 7:47 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 13, 2016 at 3:27 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 13, 2016 at 8:29 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 13, 2016 at 10:36 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 13, 2016 at 8:47 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 13, 2016 at 9:51 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 13, 2016 at 10:44 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 13, 2016 at 11:44 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 13, 2016 at 11:46 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 13, 2016 at 10:42 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 14, 2016 at 9:30 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 14, 2016 at 11:44 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 15, 2016 at 2:27 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 15, 2016 at 8:08 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 13, 2016 at 12:09 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 13, 2016 at 12:38 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 13, 2016 at 12:27 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 13, 2016 at 12:46 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 13, 2016 at 12:50 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 14, 2016 at 11:46 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 15, 2016 at 4:47 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 15, 2016 at 8:07 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 15, 2016 at 8:12 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 15, 2016 at 8:31 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 15, 2016 at 9:08 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 15, 2016 at 8:55 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 15, 2016 at 9:11 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 15, 2016 at 9:23 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 15, 2016 at 9:28 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 15, 2016 at 9:33 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 15, 2016 at 9:40 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 15, 2016 at 9:51 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 16, 2016 at 7:12 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 16, 2016 at 7:56 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 16, 2016 at 8:10 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 16, 2016 at 8:21 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 16, 2016 at 8:34 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 16, 2016 at 5:18 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 16, 2016 at 5:51 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 16, 2016 at 9:10 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 16, 2016 at 9:24 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 16, 2016 at 9:41 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 16, 2016 at 10:19 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 16, 2016 at 4:46 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 16, 2016 at 8:47 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 16, 2016 at 8:49 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 16, 2016 at 8:58 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 16, 2016 at 9:17 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 16, 2016 at 9:36 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 16, 2016 at 9:57 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 16, 2016 at 10:18 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 16, 2016 at 9:31 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 16, 2016 at 8:58 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 17, 2016 at 1:39 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 17, 2016 at 9:05 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 20, 2016 at 9:23 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 16, 2016 at 10:27 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 16, 2016 at 10:29 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 16, 2016 at 10:32 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 16, 2016 at 10:37 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 16, 2016 at 10:54 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 16, 2016 at 8:20 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 16, 2016 at 11:01 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 16, 2016 at 2:42 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 16, 2016 at 4:48 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 16, 2016 at 6:51 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 16, 2016 at 8:23 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 17, 2016 at 12:30 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 17, 2016 at 12:40 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 17, 2016 at 2:23 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 17, 2016 at 1:51 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 17, 2016 at 2:12 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 17, 2016 at 2:18 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 17, 2016 at 7:45 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 17, 2016 at 7:48 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 17, 2016 at 8:22 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 17, 2016 at 8:37 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 17, 2016 at 8:52 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 17, 2016 at 2:27 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 17, 2016 at 2:01 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 17, 2016 at 2:12 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 17, 2016 at 2:09 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 17, 2016 at 2:11 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 17, 2016 at 2:16 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 17, 2016 at 2:16 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 17, 2016 at 2:24 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 17, 2016 at 8:22 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 17, 2016 at 9:14 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 17, 2016 at 11:02 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 17, 2016 at 11:30 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 18, 2016 at 3:43 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 18, 2016 at 10:28 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 18, 2016 at 10:39 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 18, 2016 at 10:53 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 18, 2016 at 10:56 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 18, 2016 at 11:21 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 18, 2016 at 11:19 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 19, 2016 at 8:54 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 20, 2016 at 12:58 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 18, 2016 at 9:03 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 18, 2016 at 9:12 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Tonus - November 18, 2016 at 10:21 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 18, 2016 at 9:30 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 18, 2016 at 9:36 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 18, 2016 at 9:39 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 18, 2016 at 9:40 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 18, 2016 at 9:45 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 18, 2016 at 9:48 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 18, 2016 at 10:04 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 18, 2016 at 10:09 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 18, 2016 at 10:23 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Tonus - November 18, 2016 at 10:31 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 18, 2016 at 10:25 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 18, 2016 at 10:37 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 18, 2016 at 10:40 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 18, 2016 at 10:48 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 18, 2016 at 10:53 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 18, 2016 at 10:33 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 18, 2016 at 10:41 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 18, 2016 at 10:46 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 18, 2016 at 10:50 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 18, 2016 at 10:53 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 18, 2016 at 11:06 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 18, 2016 at 11:03 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 19, 2016 at 11:58 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 19, 2016 at 8:26 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 19, 2016 at 8:48 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 20, 2016 at 12:54 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 18, 2016 at 10:58 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 18, 2016 at 11:01 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 18, 2016 at 11:09 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 18, 2016 at 11:07 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 18, 2016 at 11:23 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by The Grand Nudger - November 18, 2016 at 11:12 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 18, 2016 at 11:24 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Foxaèr - November 19, 2016 at 8:29 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 19, 2016 at 8:41 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 20, 2016 at 12:52 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 20, 2016 at 12:53 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Foxaèr - November 19, 2016 at 8:53 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 19, 2016 at 8:54 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 20, 2016 at 12:59 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 20, 2016 at 3:31 am
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 20, 2016 at 12:22 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 20, 2016 at 12:25 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 20, 2016 at 1:00 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 20, 2016 at 1:35 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 20, 2016 at 2:02 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by robvalue - November 20, 2016 at 2:17 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Ignorant - November 20, 2016 at 3:39 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by Edwardo Piet - November 20, 2016 at 2:22 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by FallentoReason - November 20, 2016 at 11:47 pm
RE: On Moral Authorities - by theologian - November 21, 2016 at 12:54 am

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