RE: Meliorism - The rise of neo-atheism and the fall of reason
April 14, 2013 at 8:55 pm
(This post was last modified: April 14, 2013 at 9:31 pm by ManMachine.)
(April 12, 2013 at 8:51 pm)Lord Privy Seal Wrote:
LPS,
Thank you for the detailed response. I've read it and digested it but rather than split my debate up into fragments I'm going to provide what I hope is a comprehensive and coherent response. I'll deal with a few minor issues first.
I would imagine most atheists are not convinced of the existence of a cosmic telos, I’m certainly not. This is exactly what I’m challenging.
Just to clarify, I’m not familiar with Michael Greer’s blog, your mention of it is the first I’ve heard of it.
I am absolutely not suggesting that because we haven’t ‘created an absolutely perfect Heaven on Earth we have made no improvements at all.’ I’m suggesting that the whole idea of human progress through science and technology is false.
Whether or not I’m willing to trade places with a Visigoth is an irrelevance. There is no way I can fully know the difference between life today and what it might have been like in the distant past. I recognise there have been changes and I know a little about some of the technologies they had back then but nowhere near enough to make a meaningful comparison. It’s a ridiculous suggestion and underlines my point about the utter futility of tit-for-tat, good versus bad comparisons.
What I do know is that the past was different. I never lived in Visigoth times so I cannot say how satisfying a Visigoth life would be, but then neither can you.
Let’s examine the thought process behind the notion of human progress. You’ve mentioned a number of things over various posts. All of which you claim are progress. My point is, for you to make that statement you need a universal frame of reference. I’m not saying landing someone on the moon was not an amazing feat of engineering and Physics, it was, but it’s not human progress no matter how much you want it to be.
The Space Race came about as a result of the Cold War, it was politically driven. That’s not a problem, a lot of modern science is politically and commercially driven. The fact remains that the goal of the Space Race was to beat the Russians to the Moon. It served the USA very well, and we all got some useful technologies out of it.
On a Human level the picture is very different. If landing a person on the moon is progress then what has the Human race progressed against? To answer this you have to provide goals for the Human Race to measure this progress against. But we all know from Evolution and Biology that no such natural goals exist. There is no grand Universal design, there is no meaning to human life, all we have is a sequence of purely random events.
Any goals that are provided (like the many dotted throughout this thread) are provided by us to justify the notion of progress. Do animals measure themselves in terms of animal progress? No.
Triops cancriformis is a small shrimp like creature that has absolutely no concept of progress and yet it has been around for an estimated 200 million years, that completely knocks humans out the park in terms of genetic longevity. If it were a league table, humans would be quite low down the table, and let’s face it if we carry on the way we are going then we are going to change the environment that supports us and eventually extinct ourselves, all things considered we’re too species-centric to ever top the league.
This little bit of inter-species nonsense aside, it illustrates my point. Darwin showed us that Humans are just like any other animal, but to accept the notion that we can use science and technology to progress our species is to accept the Judao/Christian promise of salvation. That there is some natural design we can fulfil, some kind of meaning we can achieve, that there is a natural final cause for humanity, but to do this is to utterly betray Darwin.
In subscribing to the notion of human progress we are turning evolution on its head, and the fundamental mistake made by nearly all religions since records began is repeated - that humans are somehow different to other animals when we are not.
Scientifically there is no support for the notion of human progress, it’s just not there. We are no-more in control of the future of our species than any other animal, there is no such thing as human progress, it’s a myth, a fairy-tale, a mechanism designed to give us hope (maybe)… but it’s a lie.
MM
(April 12, 2013 at 1:34 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote:(April 12, 2013 at 9:00 am)frz Wrote: Braha ahaha, just had to laugh at this one. You are too funny.
At least I amuse someone.
(April 12, 2013 at 10:30 am)EGross Wrote: Just notice the reaction when MM says that he didn't care for the writings of Dawkins.
Forgive me, as I have a headache that started upon waking up at 6:00 this morning (it's now 13:25) and hasn't abated, hence me ignoring ManMachine right now since I don't feel like wading through the answers until it goes away (sorry, dude - by the way, you haven't seen toy chucking yet), but did I miss that portion of the thread where we defended Dawkins?
I personally avoided giving an opinion of him either way because I, 1) haven't read The God Delusion yet and 2) don't watch debates because I find them almost as much a waste of time as philosophy - as much a bunch of word masturbation as thought. Anything I have heard Dawkins say, which is limited, of course, I haven't found in the slightest bit embarrassing. The argument I hear from most people is that he's a biologist, not a theologian, and thus this isn't his field of expertise. I'd like to point out that Hitchens, as far as I knew, was a journalist - also not a theologian. No one ever seemed to have a problem with his debates, other than to complain about his drunkenness. Why is that? Is it because Hitchens was a better debater? I think we established in other threads that debate often has little to do with truth and more to do with what sounds good. Is what Dawkins saying any less true for not being well-spoken in the debate?
Anyway, to get back to what you said, there are plenty of people in this forum who also don't like Dawkins sticking his nose into atheistic affairs. I think it's a misrepresentation to say that Dawkins, or Penn, get overly protected here. I'm speaking with over two years time here though so I could be running on cumulative 'evidence' in which I missed key arguments, but I don't think either one is rabidly defended on this forum.
We save that sort of behavior for PZ's butt-buddies on his blogsite.
I was not attacking Dawkins himself, just his book, The God Delusion. I personally think The Selfish Gene is one of the more significant books to be published in the last 50 years. I was pointing out atheists who think The God Delusion is a more significant body of work than the Selfish Gene, which as you can see is not my opinion.
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)