RE: Meliorism - The rise of neo-atheism and the fall of reason
April 25, 2013 at 4:25 am
(This post was last modified: April 25, 2013 at 4:25 am by ManMachine.)
(April 24, 2013 at 8:11 pm)cato123 Wrote: MM,
Perhaps you missed the memo, but Francis Bacon rid the world of the need for the Aristotelian idea of 'final cause', as it relates to science, 400 years ago. As I noted earlier in the thread, you jammed the idea of 'final cause' into your definition of progress in order to discredit progress because it required a final cause; hence, you are still arguing with yourself.
Also, I think you are misrepresenting Gray's position. Gray would not deny human progress as it relates to the reduction in infant mortality rates or the improvement in longevity, as examples. Gray's point is that political and ethical progress has not kept pace with scientific progress resulting in advances in technology being used for unethical purposes. This would have been a conversation worth having, but it wasn't your argument.
While I acknowledge I am influenced by Gray I am not representing Gray's position, I'm presenting mine.
I have said all along I do not reject the technological changes brought by science and technology and the power it endows us with.
Bacon's position was that final causes are discredited because they temp us to amalgamate theological and teleological points of doctrine, which is precisely my position. This is an arguement for the discrediting of final causes not that we are 'rid' of them, and what I'm attempting to show is that we are not 'rid' of them despite the prevailing opinion (at least in this thread).
I'm a bit pushed for time right now but I would also argue you have not fully represented Gray's position. So I'll come back to that one later.
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
