Debate with a Christian

[discipulus]

Look into what he says closely, something extraordinary is indeed present. He states that an immense multitude of Christians were convicted by Nero for starting the fire that burned a great deal of Rome in 64A.D.

Now, if Jesus, who we know was crucified, had died and indeed remained dead, then it becomes inexplicable as to how His immediate disciples (all of which were Jews), who were despondent, fearful of their lives and forced into hiding, could have somehow been the cause of there being an immense multitude of Christians in Rome which is roughly 2,000 miles a way in a mere thirty years!

The presence of so many Christians in Rome at this particular time roughly 2,000 miles away from where Christ was crucified and buried leaving behind a rag tag group of Galileans who were forced into hiding and despondent at the death of their Rabbi, cries out for an explanation.

Both Suetonius, the Chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian and the Roman Historian Tacitus mention a "superstition" when speaking of Christians and many historians see this as an allusion to the claim of the disciples that Jesus had been resurrected.

Are we really to believe that these twelve Galileans would:

A. Be able to somehow steal Jesus' body guarded by Roman soldiers....

B. Hide the body in such a way as for it to never be found...

C. Fabricate a lie (Jesus rising from the dead)

D. Go out and proclaim that He did indeed rise from the dead (something they knew was a lie)

E. Boldy proclaim the remission of sins in His name in a Second-Temple Judaistic culture which would have earned them immediate ostracism

F. Be so effective in their proclamation of this lie that Christianity spread so rapidly as to have an immense multitude of followers 2,000 miles away in the capital city of a pagan empire...

G. Be willing to die and suffer some of the most extreme forms of torture, and persecution and ultimately death for something they knew was a lie.

H. Inspire an immense multitude to also die and suffer the most extreme forms of torture

And accomplish all of the above by basing their new religion on a complete lie?

Overnight they go from despondent, leaderless, cowardly, fearful men, to men who literally turned the world upside down so that today in 2014 nearly a third of the world's population (over 2,000,000,000) people worship Christ as God!

To say that this is extraordinary would be a gross understatement. Not only that but the sheer improbability of this happening and all of it happening while Jesus lay dead somewhere is so staggering as to make one's mind reel when thinking of the improbability of it.

Zealous men will oftentimes die for what they believe to be true, but I am aware of no one who would die for something they knew to be a lie. This is exactly what we have to believe if we are to believe that Christianity is based on some colossal lie.

Is it not more probable and in accordance with Occam's Razor( i.e the principle of parsimony or succinctness) that Jesus Rose from the Dead in accordance with scripture and that Christ was and is alive and well and building His Church as He said He would?

No, it's not more probable that Jesus rose from the dead, etc. If you apply Occam's Razor properly, you end up with a fairly mundane and uncontroversial conclusion: Paul and his cohorts were remarkably successful at proselytizing Gentiles -- hence the presence of Christians in Rome circa 64. A successful salesman -- big fucking deal. We're still no closer to having good reasons for believing any of the supernatural hokum in the Gospels or believing that Jesus was anything other than a person who had a following and met a very bad end.

Also, this isn't necessarily about whether Jesus's followers lied (though it can't be ruled out). Good god, man! As much as you like to hector everyone else about logic and philosophy, you really can't think of another (or several other) possibilities aside from a spin on Lewis's "Lord, lunatic, or liar" spiel? There were Christians in Rome about thirty years after the execution and therefore, according to the principle of parsimony (according to you anyway), Jesus rose from the dead? Sorry, it doesn't follow.

It will soon.