Totally NOT a debate about the veracity of the gospels

[*Deidre*]

Ronny's a catholic. They don't do intellectual honesty.

(They do altar boys!)

Oh that's bad! :p

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The asterisked portions of your post demonstrate to me you have a lot of misconceptions about Christian teachings.

Most objections against Christianity that I have heard are based on these misconceptions.

If you would like for me to provide you with some references of arguments against Christianity that are not based misconceptions I would be delighted to.

So you don't like the way Esquilax answered your post about Christian morals, because you think he misunderstands Christian teachings? Ok, I'll take your original statements at face value, and explain why I still disagree with you about Christian morals.

And anyway, what is it about the moral views of Christians that is so bad?

Do not murder, oh wow! That is such a horrible thing to say!

That one's pretty much been the law in every human society ever. Of course, they've all had their own definitions of murder that allow killing as a punishment for crime, in times of war, sometimes for slaves, etc. Including Christianity. But even assuming the Christian version is the "purest" form (which is debatable), there's nothing uniquely Christian about this.

Do not steal, oh wow! I would never want my child to hear that!

Again, what makes you think this is even remotely unique to Christianity? Pretty much every other religion and/or secular society in history has had the same law.

Do not hate people or think evil of others because they happen to have different religious views, my goodness, what a horrible thing to teach a child!

I'm having a hard time taking this one at face value for Christianity, because of obvious examples like the crusades, inquisitions, witch hunts, etc. I guess the majority of Christians in history haven't been True Christians ™. Once again, this moral value not only isn't unique to Christianity, but in this case, Christian led societies have obeyed it less than most secular societies over the centuries.

You are special and of infinite worth, oh no! My kids should never be told that!

Again, nothing uniquely Christian here. Though I notice you left out the uniquely Christian concept of original sin, which makes being human a sin, by definition. I certainly wouldn't want my kids taught that there's something wrong with them.

Do not have sex before marriage! Yikes! I want my kids to have all kinds of premarital sex so they can just contract all kids of diseases and have pleasure at the expense of their dignity and honor!

Here's where I start to disagree with your Christian morals. The whole concept of sex being sinful, and how it should only be part of marriage flies in the face of modern American morals, which I agree with a whole lot more than your Christian morals. By itself, there's nothing wrong with sex. As with anything, it can be taken to negative extremes. I certainly wouldn't encourage kids to be sluts. But there's nothing wrong with teenagers who have been dating each other monogamously for a long time taking their relationship to that next level, as long as they do so safely. It's a normal, psychologically healthy activity. Preaching at kids that sex is "naughty", making teens feel guilty for their feelings and behavior, can be psychologically damaging.

So yeah, I blatantly disagree with you on this one.

Love your neighbor as you love yourself!, Woah wait a minute, that is just evil!!!!

Seriously? You love everyone around you equally? You love your next door neighbor as much as your own kids? More on this after the next one.

In all things, do unto others as you would have them do to you! May it never be!!!!

Confucius said it before Jesus. Again, this one's in almost every culture throughout history, so it's not uniquely Christian. And as my Asian History professor in college pointed out, the Chinese version of the golden rule is more realistic and easier to actually obey than the Christian version. Their version is "Don't treat others as you wouldn't want to be treated yourself." Your version, like the "love your neighbor as yourself" above, implies going out of your way for others more than is realistically practical. But the Chinese version is more passive and supposedly easy to obey, which of course leads to the question of why humanity has such a long history of not doing so.

Wow, you're right, those Christians should be shot for forcing their evil morality on us!

Come on man really?hock:

And if all Christians, or even a majority, actually lived by the specific list you posted, then maybe you'd be on to something, though I'd still disagree with some of your so-called morals (like the sex thing). But we live in the real world, where there are surprisingly few True Christians ™ in the world, and Christianity is practically synonymous with bigotry and hatred against non-Christians, homosexuals, or whatever group of "others" happens to be in their way this week.

This is an outstanding post!! Seriously. And diplomatic.
This is how I see it, as well.