I did ask a question a page back though ronedee, and it was this...how do you view Islam? Muslims believe that Muhammad was the final prophet sent from God. They disbelieve that Jesus is who Christians say he is. What might you tell a Muslim?

Atheists aren't the problem, is my point. Following ideas that aren't based on reality in turn causing religions to "compete" with one another is the problem.

I think the majority of the world's problems stem from it.

(March 12, 2014 at 11:27 am)ronedee Wrote:

(March 12, 2014 at 11:20 am)pocaracas Wrote: Think more: brain, brain, brain!

---

---

Your brain produces these "feelings" that you attribute to spirits.
I understand it can be difficult to shift this attribution and many people never accomplish it... mostly by not being aware of it, but also by not desiring it... but do try, it's worth a shot.

Hey poco! We've been here before!

The problem is: we are on two sides of a flowing river! You don't know whats on my side....yet! And I've been on your side too long!

I'll keep trying to send you the boat back! But no one here wants to go back there!

Hey!! indeed we probably have been here...
It's the doorbell I keep ringing on, but it seems no one's home to answer the door

And I know very well what's on your side... I know what's on the muslim side, I know what's on the hindu side...

(March 12, 2014 at 11:33 am)discipulus Wrote: The asterisked portions of your post demonstrate to me you have a lot of misconceptions about Christian teachings.

Most objections against Christianity that I have heard are based on these misconceptions.

If you would like for me to provide you with some references of arguments against Christianity that are not based misconceptions I would be delighted to.

So you don't like the way Esquilax answered your post about Christian morals, because you think he misunderstands Christian teachings? Ok, I'll take your original statements at face value, and explain why I still disagree with you about Christian morals.

(March 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)discipulus Wrote: And anyway, what is it about the moral views of Christians that is so bad?

Do not murder, oh wow! That is such a horrible thing to say!

That one's pretty much been the law in every human society ever. Of course, they've all had their own definitions of murder that allow killing as a punishment for crime, in times of war, sometimes for slaves, etc. Including Christianity. But even assuming the Christian version is the "purest" form (which is debatable), there's nothing uniquely Christian about this.

(March 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)discipulus Wrote: Do not steal, oh wow! I would never want my child to hear that!

Again, what makes you think this is even remotely unique to Christianity? Pretty much every other religion and/or secular society in history has had the same law.

(March 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)discipulus Wrote: Do not hate people or think evil of others because they happen to have different religious views, my goodness, what a horrible thing to teach a child!

I'm having a hard time taking this one at face value for Christianity, because of obvious examples like the crusades, inquisitions, witch hunts, etc. I guess the majority of Christians in history haven't been True Christians ™. Once again, this moral value not only isn't unique to Christianity, but in this case, Christian led societies have obeyed it less than most secular societies over the centuries.

(March 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)discipulus Wrote: You are special and of infinite worth, oh no! My kids should never be told that!

Again, nothing uniquely Christian here. Though I notice you left out the uniquely Christian concept of original sin, which makes being human a sin, by definition. I certainly wouldn't want my kids taught that there's something wrong with them.

(March 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)discipulus Wrote: Do not have sex before marriage! Yikes! I want my kids to have all kinds of premarital sex so they can just contract all kids of diseases and have pleasure at the expense of their dignity and honor!

Here's where I start to disagree with your Christian morals. The whole concept of sex being sinful, and how it should only be part of marriage flies in the face of modern American morals, which I agree with a whole lot more than your Christian morals. By itself, there's nothing wrong with sex. As with anything, it can be taken to negative extremes. I certainly wouldn't encourage kids to be sluts. But there's nothing wrong with teenagers who have been dating each other monogamously for a long time taking their relationship to that next level, as long as they do so safely. It's a normal, psychologically healthy activity. Preaching at kids that sex is "naughty", making teens feel guilty for their feelings and behavior, can be psychologically damaging.

So yeah, I blatantly disagree with you on this one.

(March 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)discipulus Wrote: Love your neighbor as you love yourself!, Woah wait a minute, that is just evil!!!!

Seriously? You love everyone around you equally? You love your next door neighbor as much as your own kids? More on this after the next one.

(March 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)discipulus Wrote: In all things, do unto others as you would have them do to you! May it never be!!!!

Confucius said it before Jesus. Again, this one's in almost every culture throughout history, so it's not uniquely Christian. And as my Asian History professor in college pointed out, the Chinese version of the golden rule is more realistic and easier to actually obey than the Christian version. Their version is "Don't treat others as you wouldn't want to be treated yourself." Your version, like the "love your neighbor as yourself" above, implies going out of your way for others more than is realistically practical. But the Chinese version is more passive and supposedly easy to obey, which of course leads to the question of why humanity has such a long history of not doing so.

(March 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)discipulus Wrote: Wow, you're right, those Christians should be shot for forcing their evil morality on us!

Come on man really?hock:

And if all Christians, or even a majority, actually lived by the specific list you posted, then maybe you'd be on to something, though I'd still disagree with some of your so-called morals (like the sex thing). But we live in the real world, where there are surprisingly few True Christians ™ in the world, and Christianity is practically synonymous with bigotry and hatred against non-Christians, homosexuals, or whatever group of "others" happens to be in their way this week.

(March 12, 2014 at 11:33 am)discipulus Wrote: The asterisked portions of your post demonstrate to me you have a lot of misconceptions about Christian teachings.

Please feel free to amend this to the correct "my version of christian teachings." You know as well as I do that there are other churches and denominations and individual christians who accept my asterisked ideas as true to the word of god. And I won't indulge in a True Scotsman fallacy here; I'm happy to accept that you believe something different, but let's not pretend that yours is the only christian teaching on any given issue.

Quote:Most objections against Christianity that I have heard are based on these misconceptions.

Oh, they aren't misconceptions: they're in the bible. Each and every one. Which is why I guess it's important to draw a distinction between "christian teachings," and "the word of god." Because they're two different things; what you believe about your religion and what the book says are very different.

Given this, it's not as though these teachings are unique to christianity, given that the one unique belief set you guys have is being selectively read. Could it be that these teachings are just human ideals that christianity has attempted to take credit for?

I mean, the one common element is that humans are the ones espousing them...

Quote:If you would like for me to provide you with some references of arguments against Christianity that are not based misconceptions I would be delighted to.

: )

Nah, I don't really need more spin about how, for example, the biblical endorsement of slavery really doesn't mean what it actually says. I feel sick enough already.

(March 12, 2014 at 11:47 am)ronedee Wrote: LOL! You just don't get it, do you?

I was where you were very (emphasis added alert!) EARLY in my spiritual evolution...

Jesus won't be holding a bible on Judgment Day!

...and I'm done. Don't make assumptions, asshat. I was asking YOU questions not to try to figure this out on my own, but for you to engage in some intellectually honest dialogue. If you are down with 'it just is what it is,' then fine. We're done here.

(March 12, 2014 at 11:34 am)ronedee Wrote: Which river is that? The Religious River? Or... The Spiritual River?

If its the Religious one? You're still there!

I understand why you guys say this, but I hope you understand why I find it lacking. The JWs have an even harsher (and more offensive) version of this: if you aren't a JW, you are being mislead by Satan. Doesn't matter if you're an atheist or Catholic, either. As far as they're concerned you are on the wrong bank of that river. JWs even have a name that they use to separate their truth (Christianity) from that of any other believer in Christ (Christendom). The latter are, in their view, fakes designed to lead people away from god.

As an aside, it tickles me to think that a group that has shoved Jesus aside into a secondary role to Yahweh have the gumption to then tell everyone else that they aren't True Christians™. But the point is that claiming that people who don't find god simply didn't follow the instructions properly leaves us to believe that god made it unnecessarily complicated to find him. And he mocks us, too. He says he's so close to us that we may find him by chance, but then he says that the path to salvation is narrow and few find it.

So if I'm on the wrong side of the wrong river and wearing the wrong hip-waders, it's really god's fault. And this seems as if it's by design, and it makes god appear to be one nasty little customer. Telling me I got it wrong is simply insufficient for getting me to search again. Maybe god is hiding from me because I didn't follow the steps correctly. And maybe he's not there and it isn't a matter of getting the steps correct as much as it is a matter of realizing that if you can't get god to answer the door, it's not because you're pressing the doorbell improperly.

Ronny's a catholic. They don't do intellectual honesty.

(They do altar boys!)

(March 12, 2014 at 12:12 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Ronny's a catholic. They don't do intellectual honesty.

(They do altar boys!)

Oh that's bad! :p

---

(March 12, 2014 at 12:04 pm)Fromper Wrote:

(March 12, 2014 at 11:33 am)discipulus Wrote: The asterisked portions of your post demonstrate to me you have a lot of misconceptions about Christian teachings.

Most objections against Christianity that I have heard are based on these misconceptions.

If you would like for me to provide you with some references of arguments against Christianity that are not based misconceptions I would be delighted to.

So you don't like the way Esquilax answered your post about Christian morals, because you think he misunderstands Christian teachings? Ok, I'll take your original statements at face value, and explain why I still disagree with you about Christian morals.

(March 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)discipulus Wrote: And anyway, what is it about the moral views of Christians that is so bad?

Do not murder, oh wow! That is such a horrible thing to say!

That one's pretty much been the law in every human society ever. Of course, they've all had their own definitions of murder that allow killing as a punishment for crime, in times of war, sometimes for slaves, etc. Including Christianity. But even assuming the Christian version is the "purest" form (which is debatable), there's nothing uniquely Christian about this.

(March 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)discipulus Wrote: Do not steal, oh wow! I would never want my child to hear that!

Again, what makes you think this is even remotely unique to Christianity? Pretty much every other religion and/or secular society in history has had the same law.

(March 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)discipulus Wrote: Do not hate people or think evil of others because they happen to have different religious views, my goodness, what a horrible thing to teach a child!

I'm having a hard time taking this one at face value for Christianity, because of obvious examples like the crusades, inquisitions, witch hunts, etc. I guess the majority of Christians in history haven't been True Christians ™. Once again, this moral value not only isn't unique to Christianity, but in this case, Christian led societies have obeyed it less than most secular societies over the centuries.

(March 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)discipulus Wrote: You are special and of infinite worth, oh no! My kids should never be told that!

Again, nothing uniquely Christian here. Though I notice you left out the uniquely Christian concept of original sin, which makes being human a sin, by definition. I certainly wouldn't want my kids taught that there's something wrong with them.

(March 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)discipulus Wrote: Do not have sex before marriage! Yikes! I want my kids to have all kinds of premarital sex so they can just contract all kids of diseases and have pleasure at the expense of their dignity and honor!

Here's where I start to disagree with your Christian morals. The whole concept of sex being sinful, and how it should only be part of marriage flies in the face of modern American morals, which I agree with a whole lot more than your Christian morals. By itself, there's nothing wrong with sex. As with anything, it can be taken to negative extremes. I certainly wouldn't encourage kids to be sluts. But there's nothing wrong with teenagers who have been dating each other monogamously for a long time taking their relationship to that next level, as long as they do so safely. It's a normal, psychologically healthy activity. Preaching at kids that sex is "naughty", making teens feel guilty for their feelings and behavior, can be psychologically damaging.

So yeah, I blatantly disagree with you on this one.

(March 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)discipulus Wrote: Love your neighbor as you love yourself!, Woah wait a minute, that is just evil!!!!

Seriously? You love everyone around you equally? You love your next door neighbor as much as your own kids? More on this after the next one.

(March 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)discipulus Wrote: In all things, do unto others as you would have them do to you! May it never be!!!!

Confucius said it before Jesus. Again, this one's in almost every culture throughout history, so it's not uniquely Christian. And as my Asian History professor in college pointed out, the Chinese version of the golden rule is more realistic and easier to actually obey than the Christian version. Their version is "Don't treat others as you wouldn't want to be treated yourself." Your version, like the "love your neighbor as yourself" above, implies going out of your way for others more than is realistically practical. But the Chinese version is more passive and supposedly easy to obey, which of course leads to the question of why humanity has such a long history of not doing so.

(March 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)discipulus Wrote: Wow, you're right, those Christians should be shot for forcing their evil morality on us!

Come on man really?hock:

And if all Christians, or even a majority, actually lived by the specific list you posted, then maybe you'd be on to something, though I'd still disagree with some of your so-called morals (like the sex thing). But we live in the real world, where there are surprisingly few True Christians ™ in the world, and Christianity is practically synonymous with bigotry and hatred against non-Christians, homosexuals, or whatever group of "others" happens to be in their way this week.

This is an outstanding post!! Seriously. And diplomatic.
This is how I see it, as well.

(March 12, 2014 at 12:12 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Ronny's a catholic. They don't do intellectual honesty.

(They do altar boys!)

Sad, but true.

(March 12, 2014 at 12:12 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Ronny's a catholic. They don't do intellectual honesty.

(They do altar boys!)

Gotta love that reply!