(September 28, 2015 at 11:06 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote:(September 27, 2015 at 12:33 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: It seems to me that our technology and knowledge about the sciences have advanced far beyond that of our forebears - but our morality has not.
We have better stuff, but we are not better people.
You must then concede that Christian moral doctrine is not a strong foundation on which to build a healthy society.
If that wasn't already clear.
Technically, it doesn't prove that at all, one way or the other, because you're both stating the facts in a misleading/skewed way.
Our morality has improved in almost every measurable way, over the course of history. Still needs work in many areas, but we now almost universally recognize the abhorrence of the practice of slavery, for instance. For all that the bad actors who emerge have better and more-efficient means of carrying out their terrors against others, civilization as a whole (except for some troubled spots) is now calmer and less violent than it has ever been. We just have 24/7 satellite news to beam every bad thing that happens straight to our living rooms, creating strong observer bias. Most Christians tend to view our morals as "flawed" and ever-short of an imaginary ideal of perfection, and so they too tend to overlook the measurable improvements in the way humans are learning to treat one another, overall.
Some others argue that Christianity, as the basis of Western Civilization, was the foundation for that improvement; others cite the Renaissance and Enlightenment as secular triumphs over the blind dogmatism of the Dark Ages, even changing the values subtly among the religious.
Like most things in this world, there's some truth to both elements, and both seem to have contributed.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.