(September 29, 2015 at 3:35 am)ApeNotKillApe Wrote:
But it doesn't demonstrate, as you suggested, that Christianity is not a solid foundation, since he was incorrect in asserting that our morals have not improved (they have, and demonstrably so), and since they have it means that we must consider whether Christianity in western civilization was a contributing factor to this improvement. But either way, the argument cannot hinge on the idea that we haven't improved, because we clearly have. So technically, the argument is moot.
Arguing that the Catholic church defended slavery ignores that the Abolitionist movement was in large part led by progressive-minded churchgoers, as well. The point of mentioning slavery was as a clear example that our ideas of morality have improved since the Bronze Age. Another example might be that we no longer consider women to be effective chattel, or that we can't stone children for disobedience, or kill apostates. And again, I happen to agree with you that every one of these things are concepts found in the Bible that are fascist and horrifying, and that our progress is measured in how far we've gotten past those ideas-- but they also serve as a historical recording of how far we have come, as a society. Yet that society is 75-80% Christian (at least, here in the USA), so we cannot simply pretend that it's irrelevant as a contributing factor to progress.
I agree with you that those who stick to a literalist reading of the beliefs of Bronze Age blood-god-worshiping desert tribesmen are dangerous, hostile to progress, and that " the journey to this modern age of reason and discovery was impeded by fascist superstitions at every opportunity" from that element. But it also overlooks the contributions of supremely-religious persons, who nevertheless sought to expand the understanding of the Creation, as they saw it, e.g. Kepler and Newton. But because I do consider the "true" version of Christianity to be hostile to challenges to its dogma, and our progress to be measured partly in terms of how far we have moved away from the tribalistic, violent immorality enshrined in the Bible, I'm strongly in the second camp, believing that we can attribute the overwhelming majority of the success in our improved moral thinking almost entirely to the secular elements of the Renaissance and Enlightenment philosophies.
I loathe almost everything Christianity stands for, in its unadulterated form, and agree that it has massively hampered progress, likely far more than it or its followers have added to progress. But the point you originally tried to make, that we have not improved, therefore Christianity is not a good basis for building a societal moral doctrine, is invalid because we clearly have improved. If one accepts the premise that our moral doctrines are indeed based on Christianity (I do not!) and that they have not improved, then one can have that argument... but since our moral doctrines have improved, the argument is technically moot. I suppose you could adopt those two premises for the purpose of an argument, but why?
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.