Freedom of Religion

[KichigaiNeko]

Unfortunately, "intention and associated action" is what also builds your bank account.

Intention= "I want to have enough money to go on a European tour"
Action= working like fuck to save enough for it.

I agree with you genkaus that no amount of oooing and ahhhing and rubbing candles with essential oils (waste of fucking perfume if you ask me) and playing the "wicked witch of the west" is going to get that bank account any fuller than hard work.

[Abracadabra]

I can have a wonderful discussion about witchcraft with you, as long as you don't insist that it is real, because then we're not having a serious discussion.

Can you please point out to me where I have ever insisted that it's real?

Have I not stated time and time again that I'm an Agnostic Spiritualist?

Here's a quote that I personally made just a few posts back,...

Are those "spirits' just facets of my very own spirit? Maybe they are, and maybe they aren't. Who's to say? Even I can't say for sure, and I'm the one who's been calling them up!

I'm absolutely and totally confessing my agnosticism with respect to spiritual ideas (including witchcraft) which is just a label of a particular approach to spirituality.

Nowhere am I insisting that anything is real.

Hell's bells for all I know all of life itself is an illusion. Life may be nothing but a dream. I have no clue.

I would never insist that anything is real.

Do you feel as though people are persecuting you, or refusing to respect you when they don't believe in magic?

No not at all, but when they say things like,...

You render yourself a very unreliable person by believing in such wackiness.

It's pretty obvious that they don't merely disbelieve in magic but that they also pass judgement on me as being an 'unreliable' person.

In fact, you've implied a similar thing yourself:

A conclusion that someone has a few screws loose the minute they invoke withcraft is warranted. Completely warranted

So there you go. Not only are you telling me that you don't believe in these things yourself but that you also consider anyone who even has an agnostic open-mind toward it to "have a few screws loose".

I mean, if you feel that way, at least you're being honest about it. I can respect that much. I do value honesty above all else, and I wouldn't want you do lie to me and tell me that you can respect my views if it's not true.

But still I'd like to try to persuade you to realize that I have my reasons for keeping an open mind to these things. And even though I risk being called an even bigger kook, personally I feel that witchcraft actually works for me at least to some degree. I believe that I benefit from practicing witchcraft.

I'm not claiming that this is 'real'. It could be pseudo medicine. It could be coincidence. It could be any number of things. But from my perspective it appears to be working so that's good enough for me to continue practicing it. What's so insane about that? It's not like I'm trying to proselytize that you should do it.

I respect atheists beliefs that the universe is just a freak accident. That doesn't make any sense to me. I don't understand how anyone could think that this universe could pop into existence out of nothing and evolve into sentient beings who are happy to just relentless argue with each other over the true nature of their existence

Talk about having a loose screw? The whole universe would be a loose screw in that case.

~~~

[The Grand Nudger]

Insane, meh only in a benign sense if I'd even call it insane. The "insane" part is in your attempt to claim ground with statements like "it could be this, it could be that, it could be anything". No, I'm sorry, we know exactly what witchcraft (and all magic, again) is, it's nonsense. This has nothing to do with any perceived benefit you feel that you are experiencing, or whether or not you believe that it "works for you". There is no "atheistic belief" that the world is a freak accident. Atheism has nothing to do with anything but belief in gods. The universe didn't just pop into existence out of nothing and then evolve into sentient beings, you might have missed a few things in that summary. Again, this has very little to do with atheism.

I can understand why such things wouldn't make sense to you, because they're very confused statements, mingling in a couple different disciplines and then adding unsuitable language that confuses the concepts. They don't make sense to me either.

[Abracadabra]

---

The irrationality in witchcraft is that it believes that you can change reality just by willing it. That somehow simple intention (or expression of it), without associated action, can alter reality. This goes against the primary axiom of existence, i.e., existence exists independently of any consciousness. That is why witchcraft is illogical and irrational and anyone believing it works should be treated accordingly.

---

Just because you have accepted that as a "primary axiom of existence" doesn't make it true. There are many philosophies that can explain reality without relying on that simple model.

In fact, it's the Eastern Mystic's point of view that life is but a dream. Everything that we think is "out there" was actually dreamed up from within our mystic consciousness. There's no way you could disprove that.

All you can do is refuse to accept it yourself.

You're just giving yet another example of how some people will simply dismiss anything that they don't believe in as being nonsense. If it doesn't match up with your world-view, then it's nonsense.

[The Grand Nudger]

Disprove? No, no, you have it backwards...there's no way they can prove that...and that's what counts..lol. It's nonsense because they can't point to any evidence.

[Abracadabra]

Disprove? No, no, you have it backwards...there's no way they can prove that...and that's what counts..lol. It's nonsense because they can't point to any evidence.

They don't need to point to any evidence. They aren't claiming to have proven anything. It's a philosophy that can't be ruled out. And that's all that's required to keep an open mind about it.

[genkaus]

Have I not stated time and time again that I'm an Agnostic Spiritualist?

I'm absolutely and totally confessing my agnosticism with respect to spiritual ideas (including witchcraft) which is just a label of a particular approach to spirituality.

That is the reason for derision towards you. You don't just confess your agnosticism, you wear it like a badge of honor. You seem to think that your lack of knowledge on the subject gives you justification to believe whatever you wish regarding it.

In fact, you go even further. You claim that since you acknowledge the fact that you cannot justify your beliefs, they should somehow receive the sanction of rationality in form of respect. All this in face of the fact that your agnosticism itself is self-imposed and gnosticism is not only possible but quite easy. All you have to do is to examine the premises of your beliefs rationally.

[tackattack]

I guess it depends on what you call evidence MAterialistically I can't prove God exists.... but then who would ask for material proof for the immaterial ... hmmm and I'm the kooky one?

[Abracadabra]

That is the reason for derision towards you. You don't just confess your agnosticism, you wear it like a badge of honor.

What do you mean when you say that I wear it like a badge of "honor"?
IMHO it is honorable to own up to the truth.
So why shouldn't I consider my honesty as being worthy of honor?
At least I'm not running around proclaiming to "know" that magick is real.
I would think that you should give me credit for that much.

You seem to think that your lack of knowledge on the subject gives
you justification to believe whatever you wish regarding it.

Lack of knowledge on what subject? What specifically are you talking about?

In fact, you go even further. You claim that since you acknowledge the fact that you cannot justify your beliefs, they should somehow receive the sanction of rationality in form of respect.

Two things here:

First:

Cannot justify my beliefs? Excuse me? Justify to who?
I can justify them to myself, and that's all that's required.
I shouldn't need to have to justify them to you.
After all, if I could justify them to you then they'd become your beliefs as well.
I mean surely? If I could justify them to you why wouldn't you believe them?
I shouldn't need to have to justify my beliefs to you?
I most certainly don't demand that you justify your beliefs to me.
In fact, to be perfectly blunt about it, I don't care what you believe.
As long as you don't try to claim to speak for God and claim that God hates me
I truly couldn't care less what you believe.

Secondly:

What do you mean by "sanctioning my beliefs" by giving them respect?
No one is asking you to give my beliefs, respect.
All I ask is that you give me respect and not pass judgment on me because of my beliefs.

It's a pretty simple request I would think.
I don't judge people based on their beliefs.
I can even respect a devout Christian as long as they aren't a proselytizing zealot.
Just because I think Christianity is utterly stupid doesn't mean that I automatically think that all Christians are stupid.
I can understand how some people can justify it.
Who knows how they interpret scriptures?
Who knows how much of it they accept as verbatim?
Who knows how much they see as mere analogies and metaphors?
As long as they aren't proselytizing at me, I wouldn't even bother to ask.
And I would respect them for their beliefs.
Even though I personally feel that the doctrine itself is impossible to justify.

So I'm only requesting the same conditions for respect that I offer anyone else.

All this in face of the fact that your agnosticism itself is self-imposed and gnosticism is not only possible but quite easy. All you have to do is to examine the premises of your beliefs rationally.

Baloney.
That's your personal world view again.
Evidently you seem to think that it should be easy to see conclusions that you draw.
You are basing that entirely upon what you deem to be 'rational'.
You have accepted certain things in your world view and that's the lens through which you see the world.
And now you're basically expecting everyone else to see the world through your lens, lest you deem them to be 'irrational'.

I personally cannot rule out the possibility that reality might have a spiritual essence.

If you believe that you can, more power to you!

I can't.

For you to even think that I could is utter nonsense.
This would be like a Christian telling you that you could believe in Christianity if you really wanted to.

You're trying to tell me that I can convince myself that there cannot possibly be a spiritual essence to reality?
Just because you think that's a rational conclusion?

That's utter nonsense.

[tackattack]

Evidently you seem to think that it should be easy to see conclusions that you draw.
You are basing that entirely upon what you deem to be 'rational'.
You have accepted certain things in your world view and that's the lens through which you see the world.
And now you're basically expecting everyone else to see the world through your lens, lest you deem them to be 'irrational'.

Which is common and quite expected of the substance monists around here. Maybe they'd like it better if you chenged it to be non-materialist atheist? Can't please everyone though Night I'm going to bed