urge to pray - advice/help

[Epimethean]

I think it may be best, rather than trying to stim your way out of this urge, to confront it for the flight of irrationality it is. I have to think that, if you are to take yourself seriously as an atheist, being able to contemplate the sheer silliness of praying to some imaginary being should be a part of your intellectual capability. Write yourself a list of reasons you want to pray, and then respond to them with the rational side of your brain. After a fashion, this is like building muscle: You have to tear it down for it to rebuild. Tear down your theist fripperies, and build up your atheist sensibilities.

[Ziploc Surprise]

God sends dreams and visions?

Now you have to say the magic words before god responds?

Are you sure you're not just making this up as you go along?

The magic words (and magic actions for that matter) excuse has been around for a long time. Preachers have to come up with new words or actions every now and then because the old words and actions fail to do the trick. I remember hearing a prosperity doctrine preacher saying that the reason why "your miracle breakthrough" (she was speaking to the audience) hasn't come through for you is that when you put your money in the plate you didn't release your faith. All I thought at that moment was a hypothetical situation where someone gave $100 that they couldn't afford to give and forgot to use the magic words. I imagined it like this: "gee so I just wasted $100 because I forgot to do that. Oops, silly me. Thanks for the tip, I'll remember that next time I give my sacrificial gift of money to the church instead of use it for necessities. Oh, and Hey, if this step was so important that it just made me waste $100 that I really couldn't afford to waste, why couldn't you have mentioned this at the beginning?"


In his defense, Brotherlylove wasn't actually talking about magic words. He was taking an approach to prayer that is opposite that of the prosperity doctrine. To say "speak for your servant is listening" is to absolve god from any responsibility for taking care of the material needs of his children and only concentrate on the spiritual. Church doctrine is very contradictory on this. For human beings with a physical body to maintain it's hard to just have a spiritual relationship. The physical needs must be be addressed or things will go south rather quickly. (BTW I realize that I'm speaking as if the body soul and mind were separate things that can somehow exist without each other. This does not mean that I actually believe this. It is just something that comes up when you are dealing with the concept of needs, i.e. physical and spiritual needs.)

Also when it comes to needs there exist more needs than just your needs and god's needs. let's say for example that you go on a 40 day fast. You are happy and satisfied because you have all you need to be happy and satisfied - you don't need food. Your boss might have a different opinion. She might not want you to be dizzy and lethargic. She might want you to have clarity of mind. Is she supposed to yield to god at this point?

[brotherlylove]

God sends dreams and visions?

Now you have to say the magic words before god responds?

Are you sure you're not just making this up as you go along?

This is doctrine well spoken, but bullshit well spoken is still bullshit. I've heard this before (and many variations their of). I even vaguely remember the scripture reference that supports it. Here is my problem with it: There is no factual evidence to back it up. To do so would require a worldwide study -say perhaps a questioner. Some way of measuring weather everyone in the world understands the salvation message to the point where they were able to make a conscious decision about it. After all those who don't choose god or the right god is bound for eternal torment in hell. To say that god takes care of those who have never heard the salvation message is to cover over a very large problem and then walk away. You assume people aren't slipping through the cracks. You have no proof of this.

The proof is all over the internet. There are countless testimonies of people who came to Christianity after receiving dreams and visions of Jesus Christ, converting people who were even hostile to Christianity. There are quite a few on youtube. Here are some:














http://www.midnightinamerica.net/docs/li...6t-24m.htm

Also, this brings up the problem of the great commission. Why use missionaries? Wait a sec, I've heard those excuses before. It still bothers me though that some people get every opportunity to avoid eternal torment yet other people have to make their decision based on a supposed dream. Furthermore so many missionaries working in areas that have oppressive governments are killed for spreading the gospel when god could have just cut the crap and given these people a dream.

God could write His name in the sky or end the world at this moment. He gives many people dreams and visions, but dreams and visions are not going to disciple anyone. The missionaries are there not only to lead people to Christ, but to disciple them and to minister to their material and spiritual needs.

If you eliminate all material wishes from prayer there still remains elements critical to relationship. these are answered questions. Some deal with direction and decisions and others are more general. Questions like these are critical to human relationships but somehow god can get away with not answering them or at least not doing so in a timely manner. This hurts a person's relationship with god but they are so bent on believing (I've noticed) that they will make excuses for their sky daddy so they can continue to worship him.

If you trust God first, and don't hinge your faith in God upon your finite understanding, He will lead you to the answers. If every time a question comes up you start to lose faith in God, what kind of faith is that? It shows you that your faith has no foundation and that you are probably not even born again. It's fine the question, but God told us to trust Him first and then you will receive the answers.

---

The magic words (and magic actions for that matter) excuse has been around for a long time. Preachers have to come up with new words or actions every now and then because the old words and actions fail to do the trick. I remember hearing a prosperity doctrine preacher saying that the reason why "your miracle breakthrough" (she was speaking to the audience) hasn't come through for you is that when you put your money in the plate you didn't release your faith. All I thought at that moment was a hypothetical situation where someone gave $100 that they couldn't afford to give and forgot to use the magic words. I imagined it like this: "gee so I just wasted $100 because I forgot to do that. Oops, silly me. Thanks for the tip, I'll remember that next time I give my sacrificial gift of money to the church instead of use it for necessities. Oh, and Hey, if this step was so important that it just made me waste $100 that I really couldn't afford to waste, why couldn't you have mentioned this at the beginning?"

In his defense, Brotherlylove wasn't actually talking about magic words. He was taking an approach to prayer that is opposite that of the prosperity doctrine. To say "speak for your servant is listening" is to absolve god from any responsibility for taking care of the material needs of his children and only concentrate on the spiritual. Church doctrine is very contradictory on this.

To say "speak Lord, your servant is listening" is to pray as Jesus taught us to pray. Would you come before the throne of God and just start blabbing away about things that God already knows about in the first place? No, you would go and sit quietly and wait for God to speak to you. Only then would you petition Him, and tell Him your concerns, in relationship. Prayer is not a hotline for things you desire, it is communion with your Heavenly Father.

For human beings with a physical body to maintain it's hard to just have a spiritual relationship. The physical needs must be be addressed or things will go south rather quickly. (BTW I realize that I'm speaking as if the body soul and mind were separate things that can somehow exist without each other. This does not mean that I actually believe this. It is just something that comes up when you are dealing with the concept of needs, i.e. physical and spiritual needs.)

Galatians 5:17

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Or the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. The triune is not body soul and mind either. It is body soul and spirit. The soul is your mind, will and emotions.

Also when it comes to needs there exist more needs than just your needs and god's needs. let's say for example that you go on a 40 day fast. You are happy and satisfied because you have all you need to be happy and satisfied - you don't need food. Your boss might have a different opinion. She might not want you to be dizzy and lethargic. She might want you to have clarity of mind. Is she supposed to yield to god at this point?

Daniel 1:1-15

Now God had caused the official to show favor and sympathy to Daniel, but the official told Daniel, “I am afraid of my lord the king, who has assigned your food and drink. Why should he see you looking worse than the other young men your age? The king would then have my head because of you.”

Daniel then said to the guard whom the chief official had appointed over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah, “Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink. Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see.” So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days.

At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food. So the guard took away their choice food and the wine they were to drink and gave them vegetables instead

God takes care of those who put Him first.

No. There are deists around here that I love like brothers but their concept of god is as useless as the angry desert god you think is so hot.

You will have to go a long way to demonstrate that your magic man...or any magic man...is real.

[Epimethean]

You are either a complete fool or a snakeoil salesman of the first degree. There are millions of complete nutters in the world, and, thanks to the internet, many of them have now found a venue by means of which to spray their lunacy, be it about dreams and visions, ESP or near death experiences. The fact that you count this sort of testimony to be valid speaks volumes about your credulity-and the value of your opinions. If you are just a liar, then your sort is the worst kind.

[passionatefool]

I see a hot muscular man in my dream once and I turned gay. That vision changed my life....He was worshipable. ..jk

Anyway, when I was a Buddhist, many buddhist tell stories of their near-death experience as seeing Buddhas or Bodhisattvas. Christian sees God or Jesus. I bet the Hindus see Brahma, the Taoist see the Jade Emperor, and the Muslim sees Allah...whatever he looks like. I think it probably have more to do with how the brain works psychologically than anything supernatural.

[genkaus]

I bet the Hindus see Brahma

Wrong, I happen to know that most of the Hindus prefer to see Krishna.

[passionatefool]

I bet the Hindus see Brahma

Wrong, I happen to know that most of the Hindus prefer to see Krishna.

what about Vishnu or Shiva? I dont think they're gonna be happy.

[KichigaiNeko]

Or Thor, Odin, Zeus or Apollo...shit their are going to be deities all over the place being pissed off that they are not included in this "visionary" shit!!

Mannnn

[Ziploc Surprise]

I see a hot muscular man in my dream once and I turned gay. That vision changed my life....He was worshipable. ..jk

Anyway, when I was a Buddhist, many buddhist tell stories of their near-death experience as seeing Buddhas or Bodhisattvas. Christian sees God or Jesus. I bet the Hindus see Brahma, the Taoist see the Jade Emperor, and the Muslim sees Allah...whatever he looks like. I think it probably have more to do with how the brain works psychologically than anything supernatural.

I've never heard this before. I only thought this should logically be possible given the science and psychology of near death experiences. Anyone have more information on this?

[passionatefool]

Or Thor, Odin, Zeus or Apollo...shit their are going to be deities all over the place being pissed off that they are not included in this "visionary" shit!!

Mannnn

oh those poor guys, probably sitting in the un-wanted deities warehouse somewhere in mt. olympus or heaven or where ever.

---

I see a hot muscular man in my dream once and I turned gay. That vision changed my life....He was worshipable. ..jk

Anyway, when I was a Buddhist, many buddhist tell stories of their near-death experience as seeing Buddhas or Bodhisattvas. Christian sees God or Jesus. I bet the Hindus see Brahma, the Taoist see the Jade Emperor, and the Muslim sees Allah...whatever he looks like. I think it probably have more to do with how the brain works psychologically than anything supernatural.

I've never heard this before. I only thought this should logically be possible given the science and psychology of near death experiences. Anyone have more information on this?

these are some good reads that I just googled up lol

http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html

http://www.livescience.com/16019-death-e...ained.html

http://news.discovery.com/human/-neurosc...10923.html