Resoning for belief in God

[lilphil1989]

Which is what I'm saying. There can't be rationalising for faith... but rationalising for a reason to take the faith leap. Very different.

That makes no sense (to me, at least).

If there's a rational reason to take a leap of faith, then by definition, it isn't a leap of faith

[fr0d0]

Good point Phil. You can see the benefits of having faith. That it would benefit you and your life, unselfishly, make sense that you would be happier and more fulfilled... that only with faith could you attain these; then you consider taking the risk of believing in God. People don't take the leap for no reason. Thare has to be a reason for it. Some are dead set against, and move closer towards accepting the reasoning.

[lilphil1989]

You can see the benefits of having faith. That it would benefit you and your life, unselfishly, make sense that you would be happier and more fulfilled... that only with faith could you attain these; then you consider taking the risk of believing in God.

No, I can't. What are they? Why would I be happier? In what way more fulfilled?

I don't see how any of these could result from my belief in something for which there is no evidence. Not necessarily your god, but anything. Unless you're saying faith only in your god could magically make me happier and more fulfilled?

People don't take the leap for no reason. Thare has to be a reason for it. Some are dead set against, and move closer towards accepting the reasoning.

What is this reasoning? You keep referencing it, but have never actually described what it is (if you have, feel free to just point me to the right thread).

[Edwardo Piet]

Philosophy doesn't require you do believe in stuff without evidence (i.e - making it rightly considered to be bullshit until further notice at the very least)- faith DOES.

Philosophy would cover all religions, so that statement has to be untrue.

Well if you are including religions as sub-section of philosophy then THEY require it yes. Religion requires believing in bullshit. It requires belief without evidence, 'Faith' - but I said that Philosophy doesn't REQUIRE it in the sense that ALL philosophy doesn't. You can be a philosopher and muse about the universe and question it, be inquisitive - WITHOUT actually believing on things without evidence, without believing things 'on "Faith"'without believing in bullshit.

And I was clearly separating philosophy FROM "Faith" there. So what I'm saying is you CAN muse about the universe, ask questions, be philosophical WITHOUT believing 'on faith' - when with specifically religion and belief in God, you cannot.

That's what faith is, belief without evidence.

Yup

And what I still don't understand is how on earth you can think that's RATIONAL?

Totally irrational.

Nope

So faith, being belief without evidence; isn't irrational? What, so it's RATIONAL then?

So let me get this straight. Belief WITH evidence is obviously rational. But belief withOUT evidence (i.e. "Faith") is rational TOO? So what; ALL belief is rational? Belief both WITH and withOUT evidence???

In which case...ANY belief is rational? So no matter how delusional, how irrational, how illogical, how without evidence - ANY belief is rational? Ummmm....so belief in EVOLUTION because it has evidence is not only rational...but so are things WITHOUT evidence such as Zeus, the FSM, Santa Claus, "Soul"s, "The afterlife" and God? They're rational too? Everything's rational because both evidence and faith (being without evidence) are rational??

...Talk about brains dropping out!

didn't say it wasirrational. I said it was rational.

Oh my mistake, sorry.

Thinking about anything is just open minded in a good way I think. THAT'S not your 'brains dropping out'...

You haven't considered some of the wacky & way off the wall philosophical ideas then.

Well what I MEAN is simply THINKING about things and musing over them. Questioning and being philosophical - it doesn't matter how wacky the ideas are then! - if you don't believe them it's ok! Just like you can read a book of fiction with TOTALLY crazy ideas - but it's not irrational and it's not delusional because you don't literally believe it.

Unlike with faith when you do actually believe things without evidence (or without any valid reason to believe they actually exist in other words).

Being willing to BELIEVE in anything (or belief without evidence, 'Faith' (*spits*)) THAT'S irrational.

Without evidence; with faith...

Yes, faith isn't rational.

Ummm....fr0dest0r.. you just admitted faith isn't rational....

Yet you believe on faith. So you believe irrationally...

Now you have said that you have RATIONAL reasons to believe ON FAITH, now if faith is irrational I assume this would equate to: you have rational reasons to believe irrationally...

Now, the thing is - if these RATIONAL reasons TO believe irrationally WERE irrational then IF those rational reasons WERE valid reasons to believe then they would count as evidence towards God's existence. In which case you couldn't have faith, you couldn't make the LEAP 'of faith' and you'd have to show me the evidence. If there is NO evidence then you'd be believing 'on faith' and you'd have NO rational reasons to believe that God actually exists (because if you did they'd count as evidence), hence; you'd be believing irrationally.

Faith=irrational. And there can be no rational reasons to believe without faith because if there were you couldn't believe on faith and you couldn't make ''the LEAP' of faith' because those reasons would equate to evidence so there could be no faith.

THAT'S being so open minded that 'your brains drop out'. It's fucking ridiculous.

Nope

It IS ridiculous.

[commence sarcasm] I will assert now that the FSM truly exists: There may be no EVIDENCE of the FSM but there are many rational reasons to believe it exists. And besides, there's no evidence AGAINST it either. And also, since there can be no evidence then you've gotta find ANOTHER reason to believe it actually exists INSTEAD.

You need to have faith to believe in the FSM that is the answer. Now faith ITSELF is irrational BUT (And this is a BIG positive 'but', embrance the FSM!) - there are many rational reasons TO believe that HAVING faith in the FSM in order TO believe it actually exists IS rational.

Why is having Faith in the FSM rational? You wouldn't understand because you haven't had the experience that I [hypothetically have]. However I can still hold a strong argument because the POINT IS.....the rational reasons that I DO have TO have faith that the FSM ACTUALLY EXISTS are not EVIDENCE that it exists.... BUT there are still many rational reasons TO have this admittedly irrational "Faith" of mine IN the FSM...it's just that.....those reasons are a secret so you wouldn't understand....

You haven't have the experience I have. But your best way of finding the path to the Pastafarian Truth that I have - is to read the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster....

Oh...but don't take it all literally. Don't be stupid. It's not all literal -oh but one other thing...it still really is still absolutely consistent - It IS a Gospel y'know![/terminate sarcasm].

If having faith like THAT is NOT fucking ridiculous then HOW? And if it IS (and it of course, IS lol) - then what's the fucking difference with God? ZERO. In the sense that that's irrational belief too. Belief entirely without evidence. Entirely irrational. It's just it's a supernatural super BEING rather than a supernatural super spaghetti MONSTER

And yep Phil. Cool that you agree - rational faith is an oxymoron

Yup, I agree too. Shame he misquoted me :p

What miss quote are you speaking of?

So you agree that faith itself is irrational then?

I am still yet to hear ANY rational reasons TO HAVE "Faith" in God (or the existence of anything else for that matter) that are indeed valid reasons without equating to evidence and therefore cancelling out the faith.

Because it's not rational to believe in something without evidence - guess what folks! Delusions aren't rational, they're irrational! lol.

Yup, I agree. This says nothing about faith though.

Well I just said there that "Faith" is without evidence by definition, is irrational and delusional and you agreed with me. So the thing is...I did say SOMETHING about Faith....I said how they were irrational and to believe 'on faith' is delusional and you agreed.....

I did say something. And I thought it was rational to the discussion that's all lol. I personally think that believing on faith being irrational and delusional is NOT a GOOD thing - that's what it says about "Faith". That's all. Thought it (if only just a bit) mattered

EvF