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(February 23, 2012 at 2:16 am)tackattack Wrote: If she hasn't come to her beliefs by actual thought then by definition aren't sound rational beliefs. I'm glad she doesn't seriously believe in talking snakes and living inside of whales. She may have some reason she wants to defend it that you don't see. I defend it because I feel it is a moral adn usefull applicable improvement to my life. You obviously don't agree, but your impass to even entertain the idea, might be the crux of the issue with her if she has similar reasons. Caring about your mother is not irrational, it's commendable in today's society. Perhaps I'm not fully grasping what you mean by "blindly defending". Could you explain that a little better for me please. How is she limiting herself mentally? How is she brainwashed any more than the average person?
Okay, I'm not gonna pretend I know exactly what's going on in my mothers head. BUT, it is pretty clear to me, that for some reason, she feels the need to get offended whenever I make a simple point about Christianity. For instance, I said something off the cuff about how priests like to touch little boys. She gets offended. She tuts and pulls some snarly face like I've just insulted her. It's a fact though, Catholic priests HAVE touched little boys. But why if you don't go to church every sunday, if you don't even pray, would you get offended by something like that?
I'm 99% sure my mom doesn't REALLY believe in a Christian god. But she will always get offended if you poke fun at it.
This to me shows she is brainwashed into feeling some sort of sympathy with it. How can you feel sympathy with an organisation that has throughout the ages committed an uncountable amount of atrocities? This to me shows she doesn't even think about it when she gets offended.
Most people aren't thinking when they get offended, or when they say things off-the-cuff. Typically whatever is said is filled with body language, tone and emotional history. You're probably (from what I've seen here) coming off as the stereo typical "angry at all stupid religion atheist" in comments like that. She's probably (from what you've said) just reacting to indoctination she doens't even think about. I've found that when people react to me, it's either what they're trained/learned response is to that subject, or reflecting and amplifying my attitude back at them. I don't know your situation or either of you. It sounds like though you could both do with a lot let assumptions about each other and just enjoying and laughing with each other focusing on what you do agree on. On that note, remember, religion might be a joke to you, it's not so to everyone. Religion has done lots of bad things, we (theists) get it. So have hundreds of other organizations. They also do a lot of good.
(February 23, 2012 at 10:01 am)LastPoet Wrote:
(February 23, 2012 at 8:23 am)tackattack Wrote: I personally can live my life just fine and moral without religion and God. If religion is out of fear or just because it feels good, I agree it like a drug addiction and just as destructive. However if you find religion though experimentation, observation and rational thinking, it's just like any other belief; healthy and sound. I was taught math since childhood, does that make it an irrational or unhealthy belief? Would you compare a belief in chemistry or love of soccer to drug addiction? I never got a queezy feeling with or without religion, perhaps some pepto?
Not saying all christians are like that, but alot of them give me that idea Tack. Anyway, soccer and chemistry do exist, and although I personally think pro soccer (and all the pro sports for that matter) should be banned (modern roman circuses, enormous amounts of money spent on a game that could be spent in other more valuable causes) I don't feel the analogy extends that far. I don't advocate the end of sports, just pro sports, btw.
And I don't advocate the end of religion, just the end of the hypocritical kind.
(February 23, 2012 at 11:50 pm)Xavier Wrote:
(February 22, 2012 at 1:34 pm)Strongbad Wrote: I'd say that there is a very good reason that his wife believes what she does, just like Napolean's mom (and my wife too, btw), and it has nothing to do with the validity of her beliefs. She, like every other Christian that I've ever met or corresponded with (including every Christian on this forum, especially the ones that claim to be "former atheists") was indoctrinated as a child. It is almost impossible for her to not carry on believing what she was taught before she reached the age of reason. People in authority when she was a child instructed her that the Christian god is real, the Bible is God's word, hell is a real place to be feared, Satan is real, sin is real, etc, etc. It is a statistical fact that the vast majority of people that were indoctrinated as children have an extremely difficult time escaping the clutches of their indoctrination, and it is almost pointless to try to deprogram them.
I was indoctrinated as a child with religious belief, and was forced to go to church all the time by my parents, and went to a very religous school where we were taught Christian beliefs and mythology as being facts as much as science and recorded history is fact.
I still rejected it a very early age because it seemed completely irrational and in no way plausible.
I just don't understand how people can grow up and still believe in this stuff.
I think its a million times harder to believe Christian god is real, the Bible is God's word, hell is a real place to be feared, Satan is real, sin is real, etc, etc. than it is to be an atheist.
I can't help it but I get very angry with Christians when discussing religion because it seems to me they're just deliberately trying to be stupid and wilfully ignorant and I have no respect for that.
Teaching Chirstianity in a school enviornment as if it's fact is preposterous, and I'll never send my kids to one of those type of schools. The very crux of the Abrahamic religions is faith, which has nothing to do with any of the sciences at all. People can grow up to believe religion, because they probably have a different understanding of the tenants than you grew up believing that's far less unbelievable. I'm sorry you can't control yourself with Christians, sounds like a personal problem. Perhaps it starts with determining that someone is willfully ignorant and stupid because they don't believe what you do (or more precisely in more than you do as atheism is a lack of belief)?
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(February 24, 2012 at 5:01 am)tackattack Wrote: Teaching Chirstianity in a school enviornment as if it's fact is preposterous, and I'll never send my kids to one of those type of schools. The very crux of the Abrahamic religions is faith, which has nothing to do with any of the sciences at all. People can grow up to believe religion, because they probably have a different understanding of the tenants than you grew up believing that's far less unbelievable. I'm sorry you can't control yourself with Christians, sounds like a personal problem. Perhaps it starts with determining that someone is willfully ignorant and stupid because they don't believe what you do (or more precisely in more than you do as atheism is a lack of belief)?
Teaching ANYTHING non-factual to small children is preposterous, in any environment, including “bible school”. People that grow up still believing religion were indoctrinated as children and have an extreme fear of death that can only be ameliorated by having “faith” that death is not final.
"If there are gaps they are in our knowledge, not in things themselves." Chapman Cohen
"Shit-apples don't fall far from the shit-tree, Randy." Mr. Lahey
@Strongbad - People teach life values and lessons to children all the time. They're not factual just an opinion. It's not preposterous, it's how they learn and grow. I'm not raising a robot. I'm raising a thinking, feeling moral member of society. That teaching (which I agree with you on) doesn't include fear or indoctination.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
Perhaps I'm not fully grasping what you mean by "blindly defending". Could you explain that a little better for me please. How is she limiting herself mentally? How is she brainwashed any more than the average person?
