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RE: God has all attributes including evil iniquity.
February 23, 2012 at 7:54 am
(This post was last modified: February 23, 2012 at 7:56 am by NoMoreFaith.)
(February 23, 2012 at 7:32 am)chipan Wrote: Already discussed but I challenge anyone to prove how non life can become life. If you can't you must except this gap in the theory.
Okay, but you must prove why the answer "We don't know yet" equals "There must be a God".
If you insist that a gap in knowledge equals the existence of God, then you have to apply that to any gap in knowledge.
The fact remains there are several hypothetical ideas about abiogenesis, of which, we can even call your God a hypothesis for it too if you like.
Which brings us to the point. The onus of proof for abiogenesis is equally upon yourself to prove GodDidIt as it is upon chemical biologists to show a process in which it can occur.
You don't get to cheat and say, if you can't prove it, my theory wins! Thats like me saying the Genie of the Lamp did it, he apparently as he could do almost limitless magic and there was a book about him too. The onus of proof would very much be on me to substantiate that claim.
So the question stands; What evidence have you that the Genie of the Lamp caused Abiogenesis?
EDIT: Also, we aren't sure why we Yawn either. Since we don't know.. am I safe in assuming God is making me yawn?
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
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RE: God has all attributes including evil iniquity.
February 23, 2012 at 7:56 am
I was not saying you dont know yet equals God. I was saying lack of evidence means you need faith to believe it.
Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
-4th verse of the american national anthem
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RE: God has all attributes including evil iniquity.
February 23, 2012 at 7:58 am
(This post was last modified: February 23, 2012 at 7:59 am by NoMoreFaith.)
(February 23, 2012 at 7:56 am)chipan Wrote: I was not saying you dont know yet equals God. I was saying lack of evidence means you need faith to believe it.
Illogical.
We are here, and we exist and we can prove inorganic matter pre-existed organic, therefore logically abiogenesis must occur at some point. No faith required, simple logic.
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
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RE: God has all attributes including evil iniquity.
February 23, 2012 at 8:03 am
(This post was last modified: February 23, 2012 at 8:05 am by chi pan.)
(February 23, 2012 at 7:58 am)NoMoreFaith Wrote: (February 23, 2012 at 7:56 am)chipan Wrote: I was not saying you dont know yet equals God. I was saying lack of evidence means you need faith to believe it.
Illogical.
We are here, and we exist and we can prove inorganic matter pre-existed organic, therefore logically abiogenesis must occur at some point. No faith required, simple logic.
Organic matter forming inorganic matter is not at question. The question is if they can do so by them selves or if they need someone to construct it. There is no process observed that allows organic matter to be generated on its own out of inorganic matter. Therefore it must require faith to believe.
Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
-4th verse of the american national anthem
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RE: God has all attributes including evil iniquity.
February 23, 2012 at 8:13 am
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RE: God has all attributes including evil iniquity.
February 23, 2012 at 8:14 am
(This post was last modified: February 23, 2012 at 8:21 am by NoMoreFaith.)
(February 23, 2012 at 8:03 am)chipan Wrote: Organic matter forming inorganic matter is not at question. The question is if they can do so by them selves or if they need someone to construct it. There is no process observed that allows organic matter to be generated on its own out of inorganic matter. Therefore it must require faith to believe.
You didn't address the logic. We exist. We are organic. Inorganic matter predates organic matter.
Therefore Inorganic matter was used to create organic matter. No faith.
So what is it we have faith in? We haven't proposed a theory of abiogenesis, but some hypotheses. Your God can be classed as a hypotheses but that requires equal proof.
You demand proof of an alternative, I demand proof of your alternative.
Sidestepping that it requires faith is logically inconsistent, unless you are claiming we do not exist.
What are you claiming we have faith in then? We have faith that abiogenesis occurred? I have already disproven that is a logical fallacy.
What you can only be saying is "We must have faith God did not do it", I also have "faith that the Genie of the Lamp did not do it". So what exactly is your point?
EDIT: Interesting link LastPoet, I wasn't personally aware of that experiment myself, the God hypotheses becomes even more remote with that in mind. So there is at least one method of abiogenesis, but I imagine it needs a lot more work.
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
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RE: God has all attributes including evil iniquity.
February 23, 2012 at 8:19 am
(February 23, 2012 at 8:14 am)NoMoreFaith Wrote: EDIT: Interesting link LastPoet, I wasn't personally aware of that experiment myself, the God hypotheses becomes even more remote with that in mind.
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RE: God has all attributes including evil iniquity.
February 23, 2012 at 8:20 am
I'm not sidetracking. I aggree with the logic but the question is through which process? You can accept that it was created or that there was an unknown natural process. There's not sure evidence for either so it's a faith issue.
Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
-4th verse of the american national anthem
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RE: God has all attributes including evil iniquity.
February 23, 2012 at 8:25 am
No chippy it does not require faith at all. THAT is something YOU demand and probably will never find. You are inadequate in your understanding.
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: God has all attributes including evil iniquity.
February 23, 2012 at 8:31 am
(This post was last modified: February 23, 2012 at 8:33 am by NoMoreFaith.)
(February 23, 2012 at 8:20 am)chipan Wrote: I'm not sidetracking. I aggree with the logic but the question is through which process? You can accept that it was created or that there was an unknown natural process. There's not sure evidence for either so it's a faith issue.
Yes. Yes you are.
You need to be able to state what I have faith in. I simply do not know how it occurred, but we can prove it DID occur.
Let me say it again slowly:
We KNOW abiogenesis almost definitely occurred through sheer fact of our existence.
We do not know exactly how yet, but we have some ideas.
I either have no faith, or I have faith that I don't know, but we can prove it exists.
LastPoet posted an interesting link on one possibility, do I believe thats how its done? I don't know.
I Don't Know why I yawn, it does not frighten me.
The argument "you don't have evidence so its a faith issue". Evidence of what? Abiogenesis? I have already proven logically why that is not faith it occurred.
As to the method, I have no faith in any explanation yet. The evidence is not yet in, and there most definitely isn't any evidence that "GodDidIt" or "GenieoftheLampDidIt".
So, you can't define what it is I have faith in, but declare it must be faith anyway, and you AREN'T trying to sidestep the issue?
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
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