God has all attributes including evil iniquity.

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't even know why this one comes up with you Chip. You aren't a "by faith alone" christian. You say there is evidence. You introduced your god into this place...so don't talk to me (or anyone)about what one "must do" in the absence of evidence. Is there anything or not? You don't get to shoot from both galleries at once.

[Abracadabra]

God does not need a designer because he exists outside this universe and is unaffected by time. Everything in this universe is and therefore requires origin.

I'll gladly take on this one. It's a piece of cake.

On the Scientific Front:

There are actually a growing number of scientists who are taking the position that our universe did not spring from "nothing", but rather it did indeed spring from some underlying 'quantum fabric' where things like time and space may seem totally alien to us and lose all meaning in the sense that we intuitively experience these things.

However, even if such a 'timeless' substrate exists, that doesn't necessarily mean that it needs to be 'alive' or 'conscious'.

In short, even from a purely secular point of view the universe that we actually experience may indeed be a manifestation of something underneath that is indeed eternal. And therefore the 'cause' mystery has been solved even without proposing a "God".

On the Religious and Spiritual Fronts:

Let's say that a spiritual person concedes that there may very well be a mystical (or spiritual essence) underlying all of reality.

What then?

Should we all run off and Worship Zeus?

Why Zeus?

Or for that matter, why Thor, Odin, Yahweh, or any number of other creation myths that have Gods? How about the Goddess of Wicca? Or many Wanka Tanka of the native American Indians?

And then there are the Eastern Mystical philosophies of Buddhism, Taoism, etc. Perhaps one of those are right. After all, at least they are in harmony with what is already known such as evolution etc.

In other words, arguments of the form, "There must be a God, therefore the ancient Hebrew Mythology has to be true". Are totally bogus arguments.

Even if I were to concede that a spiritual essence of reality may underlie the fabric of the cosmos (which I'm totally willing to concede as being possible), that still wouldn't send me running off to worship the ancient Hebrews and their God.

I have a myriad of reasons to believe that the Hebrew myths are simply too stupid to be representative of any supposedly all-wise "god".

Thus, even if it could be proven that there is a mystical essence to reality, I would still find spiritual philosophies like Buddhism and Taoism to be far more likely to represent the truth of that spiritual essence.

I would even favor Wicca over the Abrahamic Religions. But only if viewed in a mystical sense. In other words, viewing the God and Goddess of wicca as human archetypes of the underlying spiritual essence of reality. But since this is actually a popular view of Wicca held by many Wiccans, that give Wicca the capability of being a valid picture of spirituality in that context.

So even if there is an underlying spiritual essence to reality I would still toss out the Hebrew fables as being too absurd to be true.

So the argument that "There Must be a God" does not automatically loan support to the Hebrew picture of God at all.

So that's a very lame argument in support of the Bible. That type of argument would actually be more supportive of the Eastern Mystical views of spirituality. At least those philosophies don't require God to be a jealous egotistical fool that files in the very face of "all-wise" and "all-benevolent"

The Hebrew fables simply shot their own feet off with outrageous contradictions of what they claim God must be like. They have nothing left to stand on. It's the least-likely creation story on planet Earth.

And therefore, even if I had reason to believe in a spiritual essence to reality, the Hebrew fables would be the last place I'd look for an explanation. If they are true, then the "God" that created this universe is one sick puppy.

In that case, spirituality would be pathetic and undesirable anyway, and we would have been far better off had the universe been a mere non-spiritual event.

[chi pan]

God does not need a designer because he exists outside this universe and is unaffected by time. Everything in this universe is and therefore requires origin.

I'll gladly take on this one. It's a piece of cake.

On the Scientific Front:

There are actually a growing number of scientists who are taking the position that our universe did not spring from "nothing", but rather it did indeed spring from some underlying 'quantum fabric' where things like time and space may seem totally alien to us and lose all meaning in the sense that we intuitively experience these things.

However, even if such a 'timeless' substrate exists, that doesn't necessarily mean that it needs to be 'alive' or 'conscious'.

In short, even from a purely secular point of view the universe that we actually experience may indeed be a manifestation of something underneath that is indeed eternal. And therefore the 'cause' mystery has been solved even without proposing a "God".

On the Religious and Spiritual Fronts:

Let's say that a spiritual person concedes that there may very well be a mystical (or spiritual essence) underlying all of reality.

What then?

Should we all run off and Worship Zeus?

Why Zeus?

Or for that matter, why Thor, Odin, Yahweh, or any number of other creation myths that have Gods? How about the Goddess of Wicca? Or many Wanka Tanka of the native American Indians?

And then there are the Eastern Mystical philosophies of Buddhism, Taoism, etc. Perhaps one of those are right. After all, at least they are in harmony with what is already known such as evolution etc.

In other words, arguments of the form, "There must be a God, therefore the ancient Hebrew Mythology has to be true". Are totally bogus arguments.

Even if I were to concede that a spiritual essence of reality may underlie the fabric of the cosmos (which I'm totally willing to concede as being possible), that still wouldn't send me running off to worship the ancient Hebrews and their God.

I have a myriad of reasons to believe that the Hebrew myths are simply too stupid to be representative of any supposedly all-wise "god".

Thus, even if it could be proven that there is a mystical essence to reality, I would still find spiritual philosophies like Buddhism and Taoism to be far more likely to represent the truth of that spiritual essence.

I would even favor Wicca over the Abrahamic Religions. But only if viewed in a mystical sense. In other words, viewing the God and Goddess of wicca as human archetypes of the underlying spiritual essence of reality. But since this is actually a popular view of Wicca held by many Wiccans, that give Wicca the capability of being a valid picture of spirituality in that context.

So even if there is an underlying spiritual essence to reality I would still toss out the Hebrew fables as being too absurd to be true.

So the argument that "There Must be a God" does not automatically loan support to the Hebrew picture of God at all.

So that's a very lame argument in support of the Bible. That type of argument would actually be more supportive of the Eastern Mystical views of spirituality. At least those philosophies don't require God to be a jealous egotistical fool that files in the very face of "all-wise" and "all-benevolent"

The Hebrew fables simply shot their own feet off with outrageous contradictions of what they claim God must be like. They have nothing left to stand on. It's the least-likely creation story on planet Earth.

And therefore, even if I had reason to believe in a spiritual essence to reality, the Hebrew fables would be the last place I'd look for an explanation. If they are true, then the "God" that created this universe is one sick puppy.

In that case, spirituality would be pathetic and undesirable anyway, and we would have been far better off had the universe been a mere non-spiritual event.

You act as if im arguing about who's religion is right. I'm not, I'm talking about science not religion. You can base your religion off whatever you want but that is not our discussion.

[The Grand Nudger]

You're arguing for your religion -as science-, and that it is right. -In every single thread you are engaged in.-

So don't try to peddle that bullshit, at least be honest about what you do and why.

Is there an abundance of evidence, or is there a complete absence of evidence? I just want to be sure I know where you stand.